Housing benefit will pay liveaboard's boat licence. Judge announces.

[GUMPY]

45 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

No rumour, it's a fact. Since 2017 The Anglia Revenues Partnership a private company acting on behalf of Fenland District Council for collection of council tax, has classed boats moored in Marinas as second homes for council tax and has sent out bills addressed to the moorers primary residence.

So what would happen if at the begining you had told them to get stuffed?

Assume it would go to court but they have no grounds to charge it.

Or is it like cart when it gets to court all that would be discussed is non payment not the reason behind it.

 

[Tim Lewis]

On 01/07/2020 at 11:07, doratheexplorer said:

Have you been on the Regent's Canal recently?

Yes I have boated the whole length of the Regents Canal recently and will be doing so again next week.

 

Although there are many many boats moored on it it can't be described as a slum. Mostly the owners are young, in employment and generally look after their boats.. There are tatty and 'interesting' boats but these are the minority

 

[nbfiresprite]

 

4 hours ago, Loddon said:

So what would happen if at the begining you had told them to get stuffed?

Assume it would go to court but they have no grounds to charge it.

Or is it like cart when it gets to court all that would be discussed is non payment not the reason behind it.

 

The magistrates court case is for  issueing a ‘liability order’ for recovering the unpaid council tax, this is often done as a block group. 

 

Refusing to pay on the grounds that you are not liable to be charged council tax may result in you being sent to prison for three months, while you inside, the bailiff helps himself to your goods and sells them on. He could turn up with a lorry at the marina with the ‘liability order’ and take the boat away.    

 

While complaining to the local authority or appealing to the Valuation Tribunal about your council tax bill, you will required to carrying on make payments while your complaint or appeal is being considered. The same applies with a complaint to the Ombudsman keeping paying while he makes his decision.

Edited July 2, 2020 by nbfiresprite

[Cheshire cat]

Just going off at a slight tangent, what happens re council tax in the case of holiday caravans. I'm asking because we seem to have been lumped in with them as second homes as far as Covid-19 is concerned

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Just going off at a slight tangent, what happens re council tax in the case of holiday caravans. I'm asking because we seem to have been lumped in with them as second homes as far as Covid-19 is concerned

Leisure caravans do not pay Council tax, but residential ones do.

We have to pay business rates based on the rental value of the holiday/leisure caravans.

 

The Valuations agency come around check  how many each van can sleep , multiply by some arbitrary (rental) figure to get our rates bill.

The rates bill, as one of the fixed overheads, is obviously paid for from the 'ground-rent' as that is the income for the caravan park.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[The Welsh Cruiser]

On 01/07/2020 at 12:15, Athy said:

An interesting viewpoint. It's a very old-established and well-known expression. If you remain silent on a subject, you don't oppose it, and hence give your tacit consent.

Whereas in the modern world if you remain silent on a subject you're assumed to oppose it.

[jeddlad]

On 01/07/2020 at 10:57, nicknorman said:

From a purely financial point of view it is far cheaper for a local authority to pay a year's licence fee rather than have to find the ex-boater's family (boat having been seized by CRT) rented accommodation.

I totally agree with you Nick. Far cheaper to support people and keep them living in an environment they are happy with. It's similar to the council providing grants to elderly people to spend on wet rooms, stair lifts,  new boilers etc which enable them to continue living in their own home rather than pay for assisted or sheltered accommodation or care homes. 

 

I bought a house that had been upgraded this way. The deal they had signed up to was, new windows, boiler, roof, stair lift and a wet room. The total cost was £20k. If their mother had lived in the house for a further 5 years, there was no charge. If she died or went into care within the 5 years, the £20k was paid back to the council from the proceeds of the house sale. Unfortunately for the family,  their mother died after 4 years so they had to pay back the council BUT the son was pleased his Mum lived comfortably in a decent house for the last 4 years of her life. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by jeddlad
Grammar

[magpie patrick]

On 01/07/2020 at 10:06, Athy said:

I am one. I've expressed my opinion. Just because I'm (touch wood) comfortably off doesn't mean that I think that people who aren't shouldn't receive help. I would guess that I'm in the majority here.

I'm with you Athy... 

[magnetman]

6 hours ago, jeddlad said:

I totally agree with you Nick. Far cheaper to support people and keep them living in an environment they are happy with. 

By this argument councils should be buying comfortable boats for people and paying for their cruising licenses. 

 

What happens if someone who is claiming housing benefit has no money and the only boat they can get hold of is a 20ft GRP cruiser with no heating. 

 

Is it appropriate for a local authority to pay for the license for this knowing someone is living on it in a canal or should they be steering the individual towards decent housing?

 

This is where I think it could get problematic. Councils usually have some sort of legal responsibility to house people in decent conditions. While boats are a pleasant environment for some of the year they are far from it during the middle of winter if you have not got systems arranged like sensible reliable heating and adequate fuel supplies. 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What happens if someone who is claiming housing benefit has no money and the only boat they can get hold of is a 20ft GRP cruiser with no heating. 

 

Is it appropriate for a local authority to pay for the license for this knowing someone is living on it in a canal or should they be steering the individual towards decent housing?

A couple who had, for many years, been living in a 32 foot GRP in our marina.

He had a fairly severe stroke and the social services refused to pay or provide any services unless he moved off the boat. He managed with it for several months, but eventually got worse and he couldn't even get onto the boat, the Council provided a suitable bungalow close by and he moved out, I sold the boat for him.

[nbfiresprite]

The authoritys and other non-boating people do suffer from a belief that boats are cold and damp, have no heating, No lighting other than candles or oil lamps and have no running water. Not forgetting no shower or loo as well. I know this too well from the 1997 crash, when I had the disagreeable experience of having to sign on for a few months. Continuous attempts to coerce me to move from the boat into a bedsit by Jobcentre. Kept telling me if I move into a bedsit I be warm and not have to wash in the canal and be able to eat hot food.  The only bedsit I ever stay in, was cold and damp as the landlord was too mean to turn the heating on.   

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by nbfiresprite

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

The authoritys and other non-boating people do suffer from a belief that boats are cold and damp, have no heating, No lighting other than candles or oil lamps and have no running water. No forgetting no shower or loo as well. I know this too well from the 1997 crash, when I had the disagreeable experience of having to sign on for a few months. Continuous attempt to coerce me to move from the boat into a bedsit by Jobcentre. Kept telling me if I move into a bedsit I be warm and not have to wash in the canal and be able to eat hot food.  The only bedsit I ever stay in, was cold and damp as the landlord was too mean to turn the heating on.   

 

 

In the case I highlighted it was his inability to walk more than about 15 yards, at risk of falling off the pontoon, and being unable to climb the steps to get on the boat that were the deciding factors.

 

He had diesel heating, his wife cooked and cleaned and other boaters moved his boat to the fuel pump when needed.

[magnetman]

Obviously people who are accustomed to living on boats and have it sorted will be ok. My boats have always been warm and dry as a bone every winter since 1995. 

 

However it seems possible that people who are not geared up to living on boats could end up on them and be state supported because it is a cheaper way for councils to deal with the housing issue. 

 

Maybe it won't happen. Perhaps it is only available to people who keep their boats warm and dry and have been comfortably living aboard previously. 

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Maybe it won't happen. Perhaps it is only available to people who keep their boats warm and dry and have been comfortably living aboard previously. 

How would this be assessed? Would someone from Social Security turn up at the boat with a thermometer in one hand and a hygrometer in the other?

[restlessnomad]

I don't think council should force people to live in houses instead of boat, the duty of care stops when people don't want it. Similarly councils should not force people to canals just because its cheaper.

They should focus their energy on those who are desperately asking for decent housing.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, restlessnomad said:

Similarly councils should not force people to canals just because its cheaper.

 

I don't think any of them are considering buying boats for people who need accommodation.  If someone who already lives on a boat needs help, that's different - the licence will again be paid for them as it used to be.

[peterboat]

Jayne just this week rang me for the details of the case, I passed them on and the DWP paid the moorings and license for the boater. Jayne works for the DWP dealing with compliance and fraud, but in this case somebody knowing we had a boat asked was it right which she confirmed it was. From my point of view if someone is CCing how are they supposed to be actively seeking work? But thats a whole new can of worms I suppose

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 From my point of view if someone is CCing how are they supposed to be actively seeking work? But thats a whole new can of worms I suppose

 Chris Barton, who has just serviced our engine and and carried out other work on our boat is a CCer, and he earns a full-time living as half of Cut Narrowboat Services. So the two are not mutually exclusive.

[nbfiresprite]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Jayne just this week rang me for the details of the case, I passed them on and the DWP paid the moorings and license for the boater. Jayne works for the DWP dealing with compliance and fraud, but in this case somebody knowing we had a boat asked was it right which she confirmed it was. From my point of view if someone is CCing how are they supposed to be actively seeking work? But thats a whole new can of worms I suppose

Remember Norman in the 80's said get on your bike and look for work. IF they are CC and move along in the same direction. The chances of locating a job are inproved.

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

Jayne just this week rang me for the details of the case, I passed them on and the DWP paid the moorings and license for the boater. Jayne works for the DWP dealing with compliance and fraud, but in this case somebody knowing we had a boat asked was it right which she confirmed it was. From my point of view if someone is CCing how are they supposed to be actively seeking work? But thats a whole new can of worms I suppose

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