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Leicester is shut


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23 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

its four weeks until we hope to go ... i'm hoping their lockdown will have eased by then otherwise Watford here we come!

It is about six weeks before we were planning to head up the Soar and possibly into Leicester but if their extended lock down is still in operation then we will just stop a bit short before we turn around and head back home.

 

I believe that their lock down will have been eased by then as the number of cases is dropping. It is then just a case of which area will be next on the lock down hit list!

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13 hours ago, IanD said:

Indeed. But if push comes to shove this all CART/government *advice*, there is no legal penalty or enforcement behind it. I wouldn't even think of going against this advice if I thought there was any significant risk compared to all the other things which are allowed in Leicester, but I don't believe this is the case for either travelling straight through or even stopping but staying on the boat -- and yes I do have a scientific background and have looked into the facts about how the virus is spread.

 

Unless CART physically chain the locks closed there is nothing to prevent boats travelling through, in the same way that there is nothing preventing the residents of Leicester from driving out of the city to do things outside it that they're not advised to do inside and then travelling back in again and meeting people -- which I would not condone since this does increase the risk of spreading the virus.

This is not primarily a matter of science but philosophy in its broadest sense, moral, political etc:

 

Civilised society long ago recognised that anarchy (ie everyone taking their own decisions seemingly unfettered by others) is not a good way to proceed. As a result we have built a complex set of checks and balances that require each of us to cede some of that independence to others and, having done so, do not have the right arbitrarily to reclaim that independence. Like all social systems it is not perfect and, above all else, creates the context for abuse, especially if those who accumulate power choose to exercise it for their own benefit and not that of society. Hence, to give long term checks, we have democratic institutions even if some have become so perverted that change is no longer possible.

 

Another part of the checks and balances is that few institutional authorities have sufficient real power to enforce all of the rules that they set. Whatever the rights of the Brexit debate (and I am not surreptitiously trying to bring politics into the general forum!) the biggest weakness of the arguments deployed is the assumption that the UK can be a wholly sovereign state. The fact is that we live in a much wider context and our decisions are as much determined by factors outside our UK control as those that are inside.

 

All of this matters when it comes to making risk assessments and judgements, especially where my actions are more likely to have negative impacts on others than on myself. To be effective, the vast majority of people have to cede their right to make a risk call on COVID-19 to the state (in practice they have little choice having exercised their right to change the state of play last December). Hence, whatever your own personal view of the risk might be, in some contexts you have no right to exercise it. Of course, not having the right does not on its own prevent you from doing so.

 

On the other hand, a careful reading of your insurance policy might indicate what could happen if you ignore 'advice' as well as ignoring 'rules'.

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

My incensed post last night was rightly deleted by the moderators -- here's what I wrote in reply.

 

I'm also posting this to the main forum because I hope it might start a sensible discussion about postings on CWDF -- though I'm sure some of the people referred to will post the usual responses ?

 

Dear Athy

 

I do apologise for this, I was just incensed at some of the personal comments on the thread and boiled over after a couple of beers.

 

There seem to be more and more cases recently of people using personal abuse rather than reasoned discussion to try and "win" what they see as an argument (on many subjects) where they're in the right, and where anyone daring to disagree is obviously morally corrupt and therefore ripe for abuse -- and having spent some time looking back over various threads where this has happened, it's obvious that this mostly comes from a small number of people, I'm sure you know who they are as well as I do (because I've blocked many of them).

 

I can't help feeling that this has not only driven some knowledgeable and experienced posters away from CWDF but is putting off new people joining when their first post is shot down on flames for one reason or another -- and there's even sometimes crowing on the lines of "hah, we taught them a lesson, we've had the last word", which I suspect sadly means they've given up in disgust and gone elsewhere. Which is a shame because there's still a huge amount of knowledge and experience which helpful people on the forum are happy to impart, and people leaving reduce this pool (if they're experienced) or lose access to it (if they're new).

 

CWDF didn't use to be like this when I joined back in 2012, it was friendlier and less combative and abusive. Things seemed to take a turn for the worse before/during/after the Brexit referendum, and have done so again since Covid-19 hit -- maybe the first is a symptom of increased "us and them" division in the country, maybe the second is because some people have more time on their hands to angrily hammer away at a keyboard and tell other people how wrong they are.

 

It would be a shame if this continues, because it could be the start of a long slippery slope with CWDF ending up as a small number of angry people shouting into an otherwise empty echo chamber, who think they've "won" because nobody answers back. I've seen this happen with other Internet forums and discussion groups over the years, and I really hope it doesn't happen to CWDF.

 

Best wishes

 

Ian

Oh, how I agree with you! I hate the way some members are using the forum now. Members on both sides of political divides seem to take delight in making posts which they know will encourage the "other side" to respond and I just fail to understand why people who are presumably adults keep doing this.  Ok we don't all always agree with what is said but what is to be gained on a canal forum by shouting the odds, over and over again. Would it be too much to ask for members to back of a bit and remind themselves that this is a CANAL forum and not a political soap box? We have lost so many members who were willing and able to give others the benefit of their experience and what have we got in return? A forum which has just become a playground where the big kids feel they have to shout louder than anyone else
 

haggis 

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6 minutes ago, haggis said:

Oh, how I agree with you! I hate the way some members are using the forum now. Members on both sides of political divides seem to take delight in making posts which they know will encourage the "other side" to respond and I just fail to understand why people who are presumably adults keep doing this.  Ok we don't all always agree with what is said but what is to be gained on a canal forum by shouting the odds, over and over again. Would it be too much to ask for members to back of a bit and remind themselves that this is a CANAL forum and not a political soap box? We have lost so many members who were willing and able to give others the benefit of their experience and what have we got in return? A forum which has just become a playground where the big kids feel they have to shout louder than anyone else
 

haggis 

Please post this in reply to my post on the main forum here ?

 

 

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In my reply to Ian D's most reasoned and thoughtful message which he quotes above, I did make the point that I'd been a member since 2008 and had never witnessed a Golden Age where all was peace and harmony. There have always been a few members who seem to take pleasure in stirring up unnecessary and bad-tempered arguments - indeed, at least one has made an appearance in this very thread. But I have just scanned the list of active threads and I see advice requested and willingly given on such diverse topics as engines, fridges, cruising areas and invasive insects, as well as the marvellous 100-page-plus waterways picture gallery which "Tonic Required" has become. 

   Many of the posts of the type which irk Ian, Haggis and doubtless other members are probably - and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - in the "Politics" department of the forum. Now, if you press "View New Content" each time you visit, these topics will not appear, so you can easily disregard them.

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Athy does plays cricket though.

Same name, but he's the rich one, I'm the good-looking, and modest, one.

My cricket-playing was limited to Staff v. School or Pub v. Pub, though I'm quite good at watching it.

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@IanD Please reflect that the person you seem to have most issue with on this thread is rather more directly affected by the situation than you by dint of being situated on one side of Leicester and with family and friends on the other (and quite possibly within the city). It should perhaps not be that surprising that they take issue with someone stating they are prepared to ignore Government edict (which is apparently law) and the guidance of the navigation authority after travelling 100 miles from home for a holiday.

 

I have felt exactly as you describe above on occasion but on others - and possibly here - I can recognise I may have been an ‘offender’ in the eyes of the aggrieved party. It’s really not as simple as being about how others post; it takes two to disagree. It’s better that we reflect on how we engage than it is to tell others how they should do so. On that point I see no abuse on this thread, but a degree of sarcasm is evident. To my eye the opening of post #44 raised the stakes.

 

ETA that I do generally enjoy your contributions, particularly as an ex-hirer who frequents the Waterways Holidays section.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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26 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

@IanD Please reflect that the person you seem to have most issue with on this thread is rather more directly affected by the situation than you by dint of being situated on one side of Leicester and with family and friends on the other (and quite possibly within the city). It should perhaps not be that surprising that they take issue with someone stating they are prepared to ignore Government edict (which is apparently law) and the guidance of the navigation authority after travelling 100 miles from home for a holiday.

 

I have felt exactly as you describe above on occasion but on others - and possibly here - I can recognise I may have been an ‘offender’ in the eyes of the aggrieved party. It’s really not as simple as being about how others post; it takes two to disagree. It’s better that we reflect on how we engage than it is to tell others how they should do so. On that point I see no abuse on this thread, but a degree of sarcasm is evident. To my eye the opening of post #44 raised the stakes.

 

ETA that I do generally enjoy your contributions, particularly as an ex-hirer who frequents the Waterways Holidays section.

 

JP

I have no issue with people "taking issue" with anything I say, people are entitled to their own opinions and there will be disagreements about this. Had the replies been on the lines of "Do you realise that this is against the advice and may present some risk?" then this would have been fine and we could have talked about the pros and cons of such action -- and of course, duhhh, I'd thought about that a lot, see below.

 

What blew my top was being accused of not caring about the safety of others, by somebody who knew nothing about me or my personal circumstances -- having your mother die alone in a care home in lockdown the middle of April is not exactly conducive to a calm response to an accusation like this...

 

This is the kind of thing I want to stop -- accusing people of ignorance, or malice, or thoughtlessness, or stupidity, or being venal, or Southern, or not a real boater, or Tory, or being like [Dominic Cummings, Hitler, Loadsamoney -- pick your hate figure] because they've said something you disagree with.

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28 minutes ago, Athy said:

No, we do not tolerate obscene language, and it was removed at the first opportunity. 

I was taught as a child, by my parents, that if you can't say what you need without bad language you are merely showing your lack of vocabulary.

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I was taught as a child, by my parents, that if you can't say what you need without bad language you are merely showing your lack of vocabulary.

So was I. Occasionally under extreme provocation (see post #88) that breaks down...

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Manchester, parts of Lancashire & parts of West Yorkshire (as of Midnight last night) now under fresh lockdown rules.

 

The order, affecting roughly four million people, covers:

 
  • All of Greater Manchester: Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, and Wigan
  • East Lancashire: Pendle, Hyndburn, Burnley, Rossendale and Blackburn with Darwen
  • West Yorkshire: Bradford, Calderdale and Kirklees
  • The city of Leicester, which saw the UK's first local lockdown

It means people in these areas will not be permitted to mix with other households (apart from those in their support bubbles) in private homes or gardens.

 

It is understood there is currently no endpoint to the restrictions but they will be subject to a weekly review.

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52 minutes ago, JonesBoy said:

Bonkers: Can’t meet in my garden but can all go to the pub!

 

But you aren't allowed to meet another household down the pub which of course everyone will stick to.

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