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Security - how secure do you need to be?


Thomas C King

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Hi, I know there are no definitive answers, but I'd like to get a few opinions. How common is theft and how secure should our boat be? More specifically:

 

- Our Honda LPG generator is chained on the towpath when it's running, and brought inside at night. Is it actually okay to leave it chained on the boat (at the front)?

- Out hatch currently has no locks, I am going to fit some basic ones to keep the doors together from the inside, but the actual hatch itself will need something more sophisticated. In the meantime, we don't leave our boat for any more than one hour on its own. Is that reasonable by your standards?

 

What other security measures would you advise taking? Wondering if some kind of camera setup for when we're away from the boat, more as an alerting mechanism than a deterrence, would be suitable. But I may be overestimating the risk (cost of theft could be high, but what's the probability?).

Edited by Thomas C King
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Security is a deterrent, nothing more I guess. I moored somewhere on the South Oxford when there was the infamous MrFinch, who used to break into boats and make use of facilities in board, was quite active. The damage he caused was by far the major cost of his activities. I know of two moorers that always left their boats unlocked to avoid such costs.

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Assuming it is a petrol generator it should NOT be bought inside at night, even storing it in the cratch is not safe. 

A generator should have its own storage locker to the same specifications as the gas locker (ie with a drain overboard and 'gas tight' to above the level of the fuel tank.

 

 

With regard to security you can only do the best you can, make it too visibly secure and 'you must have something of value' on board.

 

The advent of battery powered angle grinders make most security pointless, just do what you can to minimise 'casual passers by smashing the windows'.

 

 

Edit - re-read your post, it is an LPG generator, but, the same rules apply in that the gas cylinder must be stored in the gas locker, do you operate it on the bank with a long hose to the cylinder on board ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I have seen notices in boat windows stating nothing of value on board. Really?

 

Old hat now, but the first time we saw a sign in the back window of a van in Wigan, ‘No pies left in this van overnight’ brought a chuckle.

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Assuming it is a petrol generator it should NOT be bought inside at night, even storing it in the cratch is not safe. 

A generator should have its own storage locker to the same specifications as the gas locker (ie with a drain overboard and 'gas tight' to above the level of the fuel tank.

 

 

With regard to security you can only do the best you can, make it too visibly secure and 'you must have something of value' on board.

 

The advent of battery powered angle grinders make most security pointless, just do what you can to minimise 'casual passers by smashing the windows'.

 

 

Edit - re-read your post, it is an LPG generator, but, the same rules apply in that the gas cylinder must be stored in the gas locker, do you operate it on the bank with a long hose to the cylinder on board ?

Yes, a gas cylinder in the gas locker with a long hose to the cylinder on board. I assume there's no Carbon Monoxide risk, if that's what you were referring to about bringing it inside?

 

I agree with the deterrent aspect. The ease with which the chandler cut the chain for the generator made me question the purchase...

17 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Security is a deterrent, nothing more I guess. I moored somewhere on the South Oxford when there was the infamous MrFinch, who used to break into boats and make use of facilities in board, was quite active. The damage he caused was by far the major cost of his activities. I know of two moorers that always left their boats unlocked to avoid such costs.

I don't know who MrFinch is, but, did he get caught? I won't ask which facilities he used on board, bleugh. Another reason I'm thinking of getting cameras, is that I would like some evidence if something ever does happen, help the community etc.

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1 minute ago, Thomas C King said:

Yes, a gas cylinder in the gas locker with a long hose to the cylinder on board. I assume there's no Carbon Monoxide risk, if that's what you were referring to about bringing it inside?

 

Carbon monoxide risk is whilst running so using on the bank is ideal.

There is then the additional risk of fuel, particularly petrol, leaking or evaporating from the Carb and the 'vapour' being heavier than air sinking into, and just sitting in, the bilge.

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8 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I have seen notices in boat windows stating nothing of value on board. Really?

 

Old hat now, but the first time we saw a sign in the back window of a van in Wigan, ‘No pies left in this van overnight’ brought a chuckle.

Or four months ago, 'No toilet rolls left in this van overnight'.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Carbon monoxide risk is whilst running so using on the bank is ideal.

There is then the additional risk of fuel, particularly petrol, leaking or evaporating from the Carb and the 'vapour' being heavier than air sinking into, and just sitting in, the bilge.

That makes sense, thanks. And yes, I discovered the risk of CO the other day, had it running on the front deck so as to minimise annoyance to passersby, but with our front doors closed. Our CO detector half way down the boat went off.

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6 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

That makes sense, thanks. And yes, I discovered the risk of CO the other day, had it running on the front deck so as to minimise annoyance to passersby, but with our front doors closed. Our CO detector half way down the boat went off.

Phew ……………….

 

At least you know it works, and, hopefully you won't do it again.

 

LPG produces pretty much the same amount of CO as petrol, both 'vapours' are heavier than air and can sink into the bilges.

 

The BSS Guidance :

 

 

There are three critical risks linked to using generators that boaters must know about and manage if they are to keep themselves and other people safe from being poisoned, being electrocuted and avoiding fire.

Generator 3 Risk Warning 270X285For some boaters wanting off-grid electrical power means that they see portable generators as the only option, but if the risks that come with their use are not fully appreciated deaths, injuries and loss of property can and has happened

Carbon monoxide (CO) – generators especially petrol ones can produce extremely high levels of CO, a poison gas that can kill in minutes or leave survivors with long term critical health effects. However diesel engine exhausts have also been linked to illness and CO deaths

Fire & explosion – the mishandling of petrol and leaking fuel from generators have resulted in spectacular incidents and that have seriously injured people and wrecked boats.

Generator In Hatch WFRS 270X270

Also the use of poor cabling and connectors can also introduce just as real although possibly less obvious fire hazards.

Electrocution – any 230V ac system can be a killer and must be given

proper respect and precautions should be taken to guard against shocks.

These are the core points that should never be forgotten.

  • Never install a portable generator permanently or make unauthorised modifications that are not supported by the manufacturer, or proprietary component supplier.
  • Never run generators on the boat, or on the bank near to doors, vents, windows and hatches. If you can smell exhaust fumes in the boat, it could mean the cabin is also filling with deadly carbon monoxide.
  • Never refuel any generator anywhere aboard the boat; take it to the bank and ensure you are a safe distance from other boats and potential sources of ignition.
Edited by Alan de Enfield
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36 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

Yes, a gas cylinder in the gas locker with a long hose to the cylinder on board. I assume there's no Carbon Monoxide risk, if that's what you were referring to about bringing it inside?

 

I agree with the deterrent aspect. The ease with which the chandler cut the chain for the generator made me question the purchase...

I don't know who MrFinch is, but, did he get caught? I won't ask which facilities he used on board, bleugh. Another reason I'm thinking of getting cameras, is that I would like some evidence if something ever does happen, help the community etc.

Finchy was a very well known scrote around the oxford for many years. I used to acknowledge him as he passed to ensure he knew I knew who he was. He was in and out of prison for many years but is long gone. He caused damage usualy to boats daft enough to have exterior padlocks each end shouting out " I am not in " we never use padlocks, he would smash his way in as Nightwatch says. He drank any booze and ate any food but didnt nick much else. He had so much of  reputation he ended up like Bonny and clyde having broken into three different boats all at the same time 50 miles apart lol.

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LPG generators, when disconnected from the gas cylinder, are fuel less.(provided the old petrol tank is completely empty)

This means they can be stored in places where a petrol one could not, under BSC. regulations.  Gas cylinder must be stored in a proper gas locker.

Like most things of value, better stored out of sight.

 

Bod.

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40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Phew ……………….

 

At least you know it works, and, hopefully you won't do it again.

 

LPG produces pretty much the same amount of CO as petrol, both 'vapours' are heavier than air and can sink into the bilges.

 

 

i'm not sure which vapours you are referring to. CO is lighter than air.

LPG and petrol vapour are both heavier.

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14 minutes ago, Alastair said:

i'm not sure which vapours you are referring to. CO is lighter than air.

LPG and petrol vapour are both heavier.

Yes - Badly written, but that is what I was suggesting.

 

 

 

Both produce similar amounts of CO. 

CO is a very similar weight to air and 'floats about', neither rising or falling in the air, which is why you should have your CO alarm at 'head height' at the side of your bed. 

Air has a molecular weight of 28.013 while Carbon Monoxide (CO) has a weight of 28.011. ..

 

From the BSS :

"...… in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head"

 

 

 

Vapours from both LPG & Petrol are heavier than air and will collect in the bilges until a suitable spark comes by and then they will disperse in a "rapidly expanding bubble of heat, noise and light"

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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21 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Finchy was a very well known scrote around the oxford for many years. I used to acknowledge him as he passed to ensure he knew I knew who he was. He was in and out of prison for many years but is long gone. He caused damage usualy to boats daft enough to have exterior padlocks each end shouting out " I am not in " we never use padlocks, he would smash his way in as Nightwatch says. He drank any booze and ate any food but didnt nick much else. He had so much of  reputation he ended up like Bonny and clyde having broken into three different boats all at the same time 50 miles apart lol.

Apparently a former soldier who had chosen a vagrant life up and down the towpaths of the Midlands. His trade mark was, as Mr. S. suggests, to drink any spirits on board - after which he would wash the glass and leave it neatly on the draining board!

   He broke into our boat once, when we were moored on the offside at Forge Farm north of Cropredy. He forced an engine room side door open and got into the engine room (muddy bootprints found) but he must have been too drunk to realise that there was more boat beyond the engine room, and did no interior damage or pilfering.

   I do not know if he is still alive - he would be well into his 70s now, I believe.

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4 minutes ago, Athy said:

Apparently a former soldier who had chosen a vagrant life up and down the towpaths of the Midlands. His trade mark was, as Mr. S. suggests, to drink any spirits on board - after which he would wash the glass and leave it neatly on the draining board!

   He broke into our boat once, when we were moored on the offside at Forge Farm north of Cropredy. He forced an engine room side door open and got into the engine room (muddy bootprints found) but he must have been too drunk to realise that there was more boat beyond the engine room, and did no interior damage or pilfering.

   I do not know if he is still alive - he would be well into his 70s now, I believe.

Yes I understand he was x army but never state it as I am not sure personaly. You are right he will be late 70s now if still alive. hes not been seen for several years. A sad soul realy and never violent. He broke into a boat I owned pre my ownership and made a right mess of the back doors as they had been padlocked, I repaired the doors when I bought the boat.

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2 minutes ago, Athy said:

Apparently a former soldier who had chosen a vagrant life up and down the towpaths of the Midlands. His trade mark was, as Mr. S. suggests, to drink any spirits on board - after which he would wash the glass and leave it neatly on the draining board!

   He broke into our boat once, when we were moored on the offside at Forge Farm north of Cropredy. He forced an engine room side door open and got into the engine room (muddy bootprints found) but he must have been too drunk to realise that there was more boat beyond the engine room, and did no interior damage or pilfering.

   I do not know if he is still alive - he would be well into his 70s now, I believe.

He broke into our boat through the side doors once when it was in Crick Marina; he did £4 worth of damage by breaking the bolts of the lid that comes down over them, which I consider was a very reasonable price for a lesson in security (we improved the side door security after that). He drank a half-bottle of whisky that I had left on board, but didn't touch the bottle of sweet sherry that we'd been trying to get rid of for a couple of years, then washed up and tidied before he left. In fact the first thing that we noticed when we came back on board was that the boat was tidier than we had left it!

 

See also https://braunstonmarina.co.uk/finch-the-remorseful-day/

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1 minute ago, Keeping Up said:

He broke into our boat through the side doors once when it was in Crick Marina; he did £4 worth of damage by breaking the bolts of the lid that comes down over them, which I consider was a very reasonable price for a lesson in security (we improved the side door security after that). He drank a half-bottle of whisky that I had left on board, but didn't touch the bottle of sweet sherry that we'd been trying to get rid of for a couple of years, then washed up and tidied before he left. In fact the first thing that we noticed when we came back on board was that the boat was tidier than we had left it!

 

See also https://braunstonmarina.co.uk/finch-the-remorseful-day/

Ya cant balme him for not touching the sherry, a thief has some standards you know :D

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Elderly couple of walkers having a rest at water point last week when went to fill buckby jokingly asked if it was a gin pump. Sounds like that would have been right up Mr.Finch's street.

 

No fan of gin but sherry's about as palatable as Cinzano, not at all.

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3 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

 

 

No fan of gin but sherry's about as palatable as Cinzano, not at all.

I was given a taste of it as a teenager because Mum drank Harvey's Bristol Cream before dinner. Then Dad gave me some of his Brewmaster beer to taste. Talk about a "no contest".

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2 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

Hi, I know there are no definitive answers, but I'd like to get a few opinions. How common is theft and how secure should our boat be? More specifically:

 

- Our Honda LPG generator is chained on the towpath when it's running, and brought inside at night. Is it actually okay to leave it chained on the boat (at the front)?

- Out hatch currently has no locks, I am going to fit some basic ones to keep the doors together from the inside, but the actual hatch itself will need something more sophisticated. In the meantime, we don't leave our boat for any more than one hour on its own. Is that reasonable by your standards?

 

What other security measures would you advise taking? Wondering if some kind of camera setup for when we're away from the boat, more as an alerting mechanism than a deterrence, would be suitable. But I may be overestimating the risk (cost of theft could be high, but what's the probability?).

I would advise not go on a public forum, telling one and all what security you have on the boat.

:)

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Agree with the above sentiments.

 

a) If they really want to get in they will, even it looks like fort knox crossed with a shipping container. If they just want to do damage, petrol+match.

 

b) If they cant see it, they can't knick it! A bit of tarp over the genny is likely worth ten times any chain you can fit, and of cause you can have both.

 

 

I also agree that visible external padlocks have the downside of highlighting a reasonable change of the boat being empty, as well as creating a hazard in terms of sealing escape routes if you are inside. That said, it's what we have on our side/front hatches, and there are plenty who leave the rear hatch locked while they are onboard having entered via the bow doors, as they have suitable other exits. In our case, our 'bow doors' are at the stern, and I always unlock all our hatches before settling down for the night. Often if it's only going to be an hour, say at a rally, I just pull the door to, especially if the stove/boiler is still lit.

 

We aim not to be reckless, but also do 'continuously cruise during the summer season, which while it is moved weekends and during the week, crew dependent, also involves leaving the boat unoccupied for multiple stretches of time out of the marina, as you find with a large number of other boats. Touch wood in nearly 30 years I think the only trouble we have ever had, bar the wind taking the wheelhouse roof once, is once losing a 56lb weight off the front deck. Our fault for leaving it on show, but also sad as almost certainly another boater, they now live inside! If a radio link makes you feel safer, there is little harm, but it's a faff and a cost, and what if you get a false trigger when its five hour drive away? On two occasions the boat has ended up adrift in the canal (once untied, one a very soft bank and clearly insuffence pins) and along with the time to roof came off, BW or CRT as they now are have managed to contact us to inform. 

 

I post a bit less now, but when I was doing a bit of a cruise log, while I always take a photo of the boat as moored on leaving it, I never post of its whereabouts until next time it moves. Likely makes no odds, but if I did develop an enemy its one less weakness.

 

Daniel

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3 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

Hi, I know there are no definitive answers, but I'd like to get a few opinions. How common is theft and how secure should our boat be? More specifically:

 

- Our Honda LPG generator is chained on the towpath when it's running, and brought inside at night. Is it actually okay to leave it chained on the boat (at the front)?

- Out hatch currently has no locks, I am going to fit some basic ones to keep the doors together from the inside, but the actual hatch itself will need something more sophisticated. In the meantime, we don't leave our boat for any more than one hour on its own. Is that reasonable by your standards?

 

What other security measures would you advise taking? Wondering if some kind of camera setup for when we're away from the boat, more as an alerting mechanism than a deterrence, would be suitable. But I may be overestimating the risk (cost of theft could be high, but what's the probability?).

I think you are over worrying. Boat crime is thankfully a very rare occurrence.

 

The lock on our cabin door is little better than the lock on a diary. It is useless and wouldn't stop anyone getting in.

 

You will learn to stop worrying so much about it and venture further than an hour away from the boat at a time. The chances of anything happening too it while you are gone is very slim.

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CO and gas engines is interesting, When I worked at Birds Eye we had electric and gas forklifts, At times gas forklifts would work inside the factory in some areas, in others it was electric only.

6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I think you are over worrying. Boat crime is thankfully a very rare occurrence.

 

The lock on our cabin door is little better than the lock on a diary. It is useless and wouldn't stop anyone getting in.

 

You will learn to stop worrying so much about it and venture further than an hour away from the boat at a time. The chances of anything happening too it while you are gone is very slim.

The K&A report thefts every week, generators bike etc

 

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