More Batteries?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, huami said:

I'm thanking everyone for their contributions but I'm now even more confused than I was before I posted my question.

 

The solution... , I have decided to get the professionals in (a marine electrician). I will keep everyone informed how things turn out ...

 

Thanks

Neil

 

The 'secret' that you need to remember is not an Electrician, it is to charge the batteries 4 hours EVERY weekday and 8 hours per day at Weekends.

This can be achieved by either cruising or running a generator.

 

These times are a rough guide only and depend on your usage, if you are a heavy user of leccy than you may need to charge for longer.

 

Have you done a power audit ?

That will give your usage and from that you can work out how to replace it.

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, huami said:

The solution... , I have decided to get the professionals in (a marine electrician). I will keep everyone informed how things turn out ...

 

Speak to @Duck-n-Dive before you choose one, especially if you are thinking of doing the Leeds Liverpool after your trip to York.

[WotEver]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The 'secret' that you need to remember is not an Electrician, it is to charge the batteries 4 hours EVERY weekday and 8 hours per day at Weekends.

This can be achieved by either cruising or running a generator.

Why is everybody ignoring the fact that the OP has solar?  He started this thread asking about his solar output. 
 

Sure, in autumn and spring he’ll need to substitute some engine (or generator) running and in winter he’ll have to rely on the engine (or generator) 100%. But right now his solar should cope admirably. 

[Cinimod]

I would like to tag onto the end of this thread for some battery advice - and curiously enough - I passed Neil in Selby Basing over the last couple of days!

 

Following that link to Advanced Batteries I came across this.. I was thinking of getting some extra power and this seems like a good price

Looking purely at Ah - the 6 battery solution seems like a good one at 660Ah 2yr warranty or 630Ah and 4 year warranty (£535), however what do you think to the pair of AGM's?  Only 460Ah but is the battery supposed to be better?   Wondering if more batteries is better, as then if one fails, I still have 5... 

 

Or what about the ABS ones?  Are they worth the extra money? 4 x 140 (560Ah) for £520... so 1/2 way between the standard battery capacity and the AGM ones...

 

I have 600w of Solar on the roof, which is doing well at the moment, but I appreciate will not manage in the winter... which does lead me to my next question - as my engine only has one alternator - connected to the starter battery - is it better to get a 2nd alternator, a split charge unit, or a manual switch to help charge the leisure batteries in winter... (or a small genny!)

 

Thanks so much for you input - this forum is great.  Next I also need to look into how best to wire the batteries together - opinion seems split on that.

 

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-category/leisure-batteries/special-offer-leisure-batteries/page/3/

 

[Awayonmyboat]

I don't have the expertise to comment on the electrical merits of the the options but I do note the 230Ahr ones are 60kg each. You would want to have very good clear access to your battery box to be able to get these safely in and out.

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, Cinimod said:

I would like to tag onto the end of this thread for some battery advice - and curiously enough - I passed Neil in Selby Basing over the last couple of days!

 

Following that link to Advanced Batteries I came across this.. I was thinking of getting some extra power and this seems like a good price

Looking purely at Ah - the 6 battery solution seems like a good one at 660Ah 2yr warranty or 630Ah and 4 year warranty (£535), however what do you think to the pair of AGM's?  Only 460Ah but is the battery supposed to be better?   Wondering if more batteries is better, as then if one fails, I still have 5... 

 

Or what about the ABS ones?  Are they worth the extra money? 4 x 140 (560Ah) for £520... so 1/2 way between the standard battery capacity and the AGM ones...

 

I have 600w of Solar on the roof, which is doing well at the moment, but I appreciate will not manage in the winter... which does lead me to my next question - as my engine only has one alternator - connected to the starter battery - is it better to get a 2nd alternator, a split charge unit, or a manual switch to help charge the leisure batteries in winter... (or a small genny!)

 

Thanks so much for you input - this forum is great.  Next I also need to look into how best to wire the batteries together - opinion seems split on that.

 

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-category/leisure-batteries/special-offer-leisure-batteries/page/3/

 

 

If you have a single alternator and two battery banks then you already have some form of split charging unless its a very odd boat/setup. If there is no charge splitter then fit a VSR (voltage sensitive relay) with the relay sense connection, the solar and the alternator all on the domestic bank.  Cheap and effective.

 

Read the Battery Primer pinned at the start of the Maintenance section.

 

More batteries are not better than the right amount of batteries, in fact having more than you need may well lead you to quickly destroy them by keeping the, in a partially discharged state. The questions you need to ask yourself is: what is my daily electrical consumption?  Given that consumption how many batteries do I need for optimum life? How do I keep them as fully charged as possible on a daily basis so you minimise sulphation? Spend time ensuring that you get the batteries as fully charges as possible every day and fully charged at least once a week. Some form of battery monitoring is needed and that is not any display/lamps on the solar controller. Unless you have a huge electrical demand i think solar will sort it for you April to October but even then you need monitoring for cloudy days and definitely during the winter so you fight sulphation and minimise cycle depth (regular depth of discharge)..

 

Saying a type of battery is "better" is in no way a scientific statement - in what way "better"? It is true AGMs have certain advantages over flooded open cells but they can't be topped up so maximum charging voltage comes into play. A dry open cell battery can be topped up, and AGM can't. You can test cells on am open cell battery with a hydrometer, you can't on a sealed battery like AGMs. If you don't get the charging and discharging right you will destroy expensive batteries as fast as cheap ones.

 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

On 26/06/2020 at 18:20, roland elsdon said:

The rule of batteries is simple.

charge them all day every day.

check they are hydrated warm clean and comfortable.

Monitor them constantly.

Say thank you four times a day and wish them a peaceful night when you turn off the lights at 6pm as they are at 12.59 volts and hence going to die prematurely.

As a result they will live one day over the warranty and then die, or 2 years 1 day which ever is less. ( warranty being worthless)

Or Shove them in a deep dark hole. Forget about them. charge them when the engines running or the suns out.

Whatever you do dont try and monitor or protect them you will become obsessive.

They will last 2 years or till the warranty runs out which is worthless.

 

A perfect and very correct post.

[Dr Bob]

On 26/06/2020 at 18:20, roland elsdon said:

The rule of batteries is simple.

charge them all day every day.

check they are hydrated warm clean and comfortable.

Monitor them constantly.

Say thank you four times a day and wish them a peaceful night when you turn off the lights at 6pm as they are at 12.59 volts and hence going to die prematurely.

As a result they will live one day over the warranty and then die, or 2 years 1 day which ever is less. ( warranty being worthless)

Or Shove them in a deep dark hole. Forget about them. charge them when the engines running or the suns out.

Whatever you do dont try and monitor or protect them you will become obsessive.

They will last 2 years or till the warranty runs out which is worthless.

 

....or get Lithiums and all the rules change.

[Tony Brooks]

No, don't get lithiums until you really understand them and their specific requirements. Once you have done that and put the necessary charge control in place they should outlast even quality lead acids and charge far faster.

 

The posts and quotes above have a small degree of truth in them but do not get the idea that however you treat lead acid batteries they will last at least two years. New to boats live-aboards can and do easily destroy lead acid batteries within a very few weeks, certainly less than a month because they over discharge them, never fully charge them, and  thereby assist them to sulphate and develop cell shorts.

 

You do not need to get anal about monitoring them but very simple voltage and current checks maybe three times a day will help you get far more than two years life out of batteries. You just need an accurate ammeter and voltmeter plus a little knowledge to understand how to read them and what you can extrapolate from the readings. Its all in the Battery Primer I referred to above.

 

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

....or get Lithiums and all the rules change.

Only if you have a means of charging them

[Cinimod]

Hi Tony, (and everyone else)

 

You are all a total mine of information and there is gold in them there hills.... 

 

My understanding then is basically - until I know better - go with cheap Lead Acid as I will probably break them in the first year anyway. (Though hopefully not - and how do you know when you have!)

 

With the solar on the roof, I should not have to worry too much in the summer, but double check them on cloudy days just to be sure.

 

I have a Victron BMV-700 monitor - so am guessing that will give me a good indication... so far, every evening when I have looked at it, it has read 100% so all good there I think.

Currently 13.92v (solar working), 0.4amp, 6w, 100% and INF h So I am guessing fully charged (as long as it is set up right for the batteries I have... which as far as I can tell you just set the total Ah which is set correctly... to 220 at the moment.)

 

Is it worth investing in the Bluetooth connection for it?

 

The solar charger is an outback  flexmax-60 - which is currently floating, to tie in with being 100% charged...

 

I guess now what I need to do is to work out the drain on the batteries...  what is the best way to do that?

 

Wait until it is dark and then turn everything off, and try each thing at a time and see what the amp draw is on the battery monitor?

I am guessing my 2 biggest items are the fridge and the compost loo fan - there are LED bulbs throughout and then I have a laptop and monitor along with a wifi router.  Then the water pump as and when required.  I do have a microwave, but the plan is to only use that when I have oodles of solar... 

 

The problem I have at the moment is that after a grey day or 2, even when the batteries say full the Victron MultiPlus Compact  12v/1600va/70Amp 16Amp inverter goes into alarm mode when the fridge compressor kicks in...  if there is lots of solar, or it has been a good sunny day, then it seems to make it through to the next day ok...

 

Time to go and read the primer I think!!

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

My understanding then is basically - until I know better - go with cheap Lead Acid as I will probably break them in the first year anyway. (Though hopefully not - and how do you know when you have!)

You have no lights. no fridge, no composting loo, no computer, no TV, no phone charger, no wi-fi and no water pump, but, other than that its not easy to tell.

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

Hi Tony, (and everyone else)

 

You are all a total mine of information and there is gold in them there hills.... 

 

My understanding then is basically - until I know better - go with cheap Lead Acid as I will probably break them in the first year anyway. (Though hopefully not - and how do you know when you have!)

 

With the solar on the roof, I should not have to worry too much in the summer, but double check them on cloudy days just to be sure.

 

I have a Victron BMV-700 monitor - so am guessing that will give me a good indication... so far, every evening when I have looked at it, it has read 100% so all good there I think.

Currently 13.92v (solar working), 0.4amp, 6w, 100% and INF h So I am guessing fully charged (as long as it is set up right for the batteries I have... which as far as I can tell you just set the total Ah which is set correctly... to 220 at the moment.)

 

Is it worth investing in the Bluetooth connection for it?

 

The solar charger is an outback  flexmax-60 - which is currently floating, to tie in with being 100% charged...

 

I guess now what I need to do is to work out the drain on the batteries...  what is the best way to do that?

 

Wait until it is dark and then turn everything off, and try each thing at a time and see what the amp draw is on the battery monitor?

I am guessing my 2 biggest items are the fridge and the compost loo fan - there are LED bulbs throughout and then I have a laptop and monitor along with a wifi router.  Then the water pump as and when required.  I do have a microwave, but the plan is to only use that when I have oodles of solar... 

 

The problem I have at the moment is that after a grey day or 2, even when the batteries say full the Victron MultiPlus Compact  12v/1600va/70Amp 16Amp inverter goes into alarm mode when the fridge compressor kicks in...  if there is lots of solar, or it has been a good sunny day, then it seems to make it through to the next day ok...

 

Time to go and read the primer I think!!

 

The  dreaded Amp hour counting battery monitor strikes again.

 

Please, elapse, please ignore anything your BVM says about % charged and any time it gives to discharge or fully charged. Unless you set them up very carefully, understand how they work, and very regularly fully charge your batteries, and I mean fully, and recalibrate the thing it will happily tell you lies about how well the batteries are charged and then you will destroy the batteries.

 

Luckily the two very important readings are accurate and that is volts and amps. Ah taken out will also be accurate but nothing else is likely to be for long.

 

Use the voltage to tell you when its vital to stop using electricity and start charging ASAP. If at least an hour after stopping charging with virtually all loads turned off the volts are above about 12.2 to 12.3 you can keep using electricity but when you hit that figure its time to stop consumption and recharge ASAP. Its not as bad as it may seem because with a  decent battery bank you will find a quick check as you go to bed (when its dark so solar is not elevating the readings) will tell you how discharged the batteries are and if you need to put a long charge in tomorrow.

 

When  you have the alternator connected to the domestic bank monitor the amps going into the batteries. The amps will remain steady for up to an hour and then slowly drop until they will eventually stop dropping. when it has not dropped for an hour with at least 14.2 to 14.5 volts showing on the voltmeter you can consider the batteries fully charged. At that point calibrate the BVM. It wont help if now and again you drop below the 12.2 to 12.3 volts but the more often you do it and the lower you go the more battery life you use up.

 

You can't do the same with the amps from the solar controller because after a time it will drop the charging voltage to a float value of about 13.6 to 13.8 volts and many chargers do this well before the batteries are anywhere near fully charged.

 

Unless the batteries are brand new and have only been ins stock a minimal time no one has any idea about the true battery capacity  because it reduces over time, especially if you never fully charge them.

 

Get the alternator connected to the domestic bank and run at 1200 to 1500 rpm while watching the ammeter. As the amps fall reduce the revs to keep the amps as high as they will go but don't rev any higher. After over 10 hours I expect of this the current will stop dropping. I think that you have badly sulphated your batteries and they only have a fraction of their nominal capacity. One or more cells could also be shorting but from what you say I doubt that. If parts of an individual battery get hot or individual cells bubble more then the others or need more topping up its likely to be a shorting cell.

[Cinimod]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that you have badly sulphated your batteries and they only have a fraction of their nominal capacity.

Thanks Tony. 

I only bought the boat last week - and the owner confessed they were not too good with batteries, which is why I am looking to get some new ones... 
Will see what I can do to work out my power draw after it goes dark tonight and the solar is not distorting the figures... 

 

So if I understand on the BVM just use Volts and Amps - the rest is guesswork on its part...  and not always good guesswork... 

 

Your suggestion of the split charge relay sounds like I should get that ASAP, and I may be able to survive on these batteries for the next few months at least... 

Does this one look OK? - https://amzn.to/2ZIBXMe

Or would you recommend something else?

 

If so I will get it and fit it before I go out on the Trent from Keadby to Cromwell as that will be a day of running the engine hard, so may as well make as much use of it as possible!  (Unfortunately, the engine is air cooled, so no hot tank of water...)

 

In the winter - do you reckon running the engine is 'better' than using a genny to charge the batteries?

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

Thanks Tony. 

I only bought the boat last week - and the owner confessed they were not too good with batteries, which is why I am looking to get some new ones... 
Will see what I can do to work out my power draw after it goes dark tonight and the solar is not distorting the figures... 

 

So if I understand on the BVM just use Volts and Amps - the rest is guesswork on its part...  and not always good guesswork... 

 

Your suggestion of the split charge relay sounds like I should get that ASAP, and I may be able to survive on these batteries for the next few months at least... 

Does this one look OK? - https://amzn.to/2ZIBXMe

Or would you recommend something else?

 

If so I will get it and fit it before I go out on the Trent from Keadby to Cromwell as that will be a day of running the engine hard, so may as well make as much use of it as possible!  (Unfortunately, the engine is air cooled, so no hot tank of water...)

 

In the winter - do you reckon running the engine is 'better' than using a genny to charge the batteries?

Are you absolutely sure there is no split charging, solar  in the winter wouldn't have recharged his leisure batteries

[Cinimod]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Are you absolutely sure there is no split charging, solar  in the winter wouldn't have recharged his leisure batteries

Absolutely - 100% - he said to me that I would probably want to put one in...

[The Welsh Cruiser]

It's been mentioned once, briefly. Before deciding on the best size of battery bank it's essential to first work out how much electricity you use in a day. Once you've established that you can consider solar, then make a decision.

 

For example, This is on my boat: Daily power usage maximum 30AH (gas fridge, low wattage t.v. and laptop, led lights.) 375W solar and a wind turbine that goes up at the end of October. Solar fills my battery every day between the end of February and the end of October. I run a generator every 2 or 3 days in the winter, depending on what the sun and/ or wind puts in my battery. I say battery, it's just one, a 105AH Trojan. That's all I need, any more batteries would simply be a waste of money, not to mention the hassle of lifting more than one in and out when replacing, connecting them together, etc. etc.    

[Cinimod]

8 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I run a generator every 2 or 3 days in the winter

May I ask why you run a genny as opposed to the engine?  Do you not have a split charge or 2 alternators either, or is it s site restriction?

 

Thanks

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

May I ask why you run a genny as opposed to the engine?  Do you not have a split charge or 2 alternators either, or is it s site restriction?

 

Thanks

Its personal choice. Using a generator can be far quieter and vibration free than the engine and it saves wear on the engine. Trouble is such generators are all too often petrol with all that entails storage and safety wise.

 

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

May I ask why you run a genny as opposed to the engine?  Do you not have a split charge or 2 alternators either, or is it s site restriction?

 

Thanks

Maybe its an outboard

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

Thanks Tony. 

I only bought the boat last week - and the owner confessed they were not too good with batteries, which is why I am looking to get some new ones... 
Will see what I can do to work out my power draw after it goes dark tonight and the solar is not distorting the figures... 

 

So if I understand on the BVM just use Volts and Amps - the rest is guesswork on its part...  and not always good guesswork... 

 

Your suggestion of the split charge relay sounds like I should get that ASAP, and I may be able to survive on these batteries for the next few months at least... 

Does this one look OK? - https://amzn.to/2ZIBXMe

Or would you recommend something else?

 

If so I will get it and fit it before I go out on the Trent from Keadby to Cromwell as that will be a day of running the engine hard, so may as well make as much use of it as possible!  (Unfortunately, the engine is air cooled, so no hot tank of water...)

 

In the winter - do you reckon running the engine is 'better' than using a genny to charge the batteries?

 

Hold on. Is this a Lister SL, SR or such like. If so using it to charge a live-aboard boat might be difficult because they drive the alternator from the camshaft that runs at half engine speed. Getting a decent charge may involve another pulley and a fit bit of engineering.

 

Yes that kit will do but the instructions are not best for boats. Wire the alternator output to the domestic bank and the use the relay to join that to the engine battery.

 

Don't worry about a relay for the Trent trip. Just put a heft jump lead between the two battery bank positives when you have started and remove it as soon as you stop the engine, that's all a VSR does.

 

The instructions for doing a  power audit are on my website in the course notes. You need the consumption in Ah over 24 hours, not an instantaneous reading.

[Cinimod]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Is this a Lister SL, SR or such like

 

on my website in the course notes

Yes - It is an air cooled Lister SL3... so I guess that is not going to work as well as hoped... time to save up for an LPG genny for the winters...
I will take a look at your website - thank you so much.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

55 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

May I ask why you run a genny as opposed to the engine?  Do you not have a split charge or 2 alternators either, or is it s site restriction?

 

Thanks

The genny does 3 to 4 hours on a litre of petrol, far more than the main engine. The genny costs a few hundred quid to replace when it's worn out, the main engine 7 or 8K. I hate the sound of diesel engines and the constant vibration on the boat. The genny is fairly quiet and sits on the towpath = no vibration. Petrol comes straight out of the tank on my motor bike via a syphon tube. 

[Dr Bob]

On 20/07/2020 at 09:29, Tony Brooks said:

No, don't get lithiums......

no Tony, I wasn't suggesting he get lithiums.........just that if one does, then all the rules change.

On 20/07/2020 at 09:29, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

no Tony, I wasn't suggesting he get lithiums.........just that if one does, then all the rules change.

 

I agree and in  a very few years I susepct they will be the norm.