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Beta or Canaline???


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On 23/06/2020 at 17:15, Tony Brooks said:

No, not if he want 50 odd HP, the largest one best for inland use is about 35 BHP so similar to the 1.5 but arguably with better torque in the canal cruising speed range.

 

Unfortunately they cost a fortune when new and there may be emissions complications if fitting one of the ex lifeboat engins

 

 

And the emissions compliant engines Bukh do sell are "in partnership" with Beta Marine, so probably just rebadged Betas.

 

I've not seen one in the flesh, but the sales brochure looks suspiciously like a Beta.

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On 22/06/2020 at 15:36, Gilsteamin said:

Looking at replacing my engine; BMC 1.5. 
Beta 50 and Canaline 52 are the current favoured options. Boat is Narrowboat 70’ x 7’ and 22 ton. 
Any feedback would be appreciated. ??

Watching with interest. I'm looking too.

But I need Mitsubishi or Vetus. 

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6 minutes ago, Terryb said:

Watching with interest. I'm looking too.

But I need Mitsubishi or Vetus. 

Why??

(that is - what are the special features that mitsubishi or vetus have for you?

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Just now, Terryb said:

Special features. Only that I have one already and fitting would line up with everything. Plus the miriad of spares I carry on board. 

Fair enough, the base engine is good but the marinisation and spares prices less so. But not worth changing it. Filters etc can be had cheap enough. 

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2 hours ago, NB Lola said:

Have had a canaline 42 running for 10 years.  Only problem was replacing an alternator.  Love the engine.

But which base engine? I think its an Isuzu. nowadays they use a less main stream engine I think so I don't think you can extrapolate from your experience to those an owner of a new Canaline will have.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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  • 3 years later...
On 22/06/2020 at 18:17, Cheshire cat said:

That's a massive step up from a BMC 1.5. I think you can expect to look forward to water cooling problems

Yep, it will be far too near idle, so cylinder glazing will be an issue unless you fit a paddle prop, (Very coarse pitch), or speed brakes !! I hate to think what the fuel consumption will be, and even then you will need to fit a thermostat into a bypass circuit to keep the coolant warm, not that that is going to stop fouled up cylinders and injector tips. Combine that with a cheaper, (Is it Chinese ???), main block and the wear rates of all the components will go into orbit. 

  If you only use your canal boat at weekends, the Canaline series offer a cheap alternative, but try to avoid cold starting by heating the sump for a few hours or allowing warm cabin air into the engine bay or room overnight. That will make a big difference in block wear terms.

PS: The block of the 38 seems to be a cheap commercial KIOTI from near the Korean DMZ. The factory making the main components employs mostly cheaper Chinese workers, which is why some folks thought it was a Chinese engine.

Edited by Lifeboat Elsie May
China vs Korea error.
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18 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Yep, it will be far too near idle, so cylinder glazing will be an issue unless you fit a paddle prop, (Very coarse pitch), or speed brakes !! I hate to think what the fuel consumption will be, and even then you will need to fit a thermostat into a bypass circuit to keep the coolant warm, not that that is going to stop fouled up cylinders and injector tips. Combine that with a cheaper, (Is it Chinese ???), main block and the wear rates of all the components will go into orbit. 

  If you only use your canal boat at weekends, the Canaline series offer a cheap alternative, but try to avoid cold starting by heating the sump for a few hours or allowing warm cabin air into the engine bay or room overnight. That will make a big difference in block wear terms.

PS: The block of the 38 seems to be a cheap commercial KIOTI from near the Korean DMZ. The factory making the main components employs mostly cheaper Chinese workers, which is why some folks thought it was a Chinese engine.

Twaddle. Molly is back.

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2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Twaddle. Molly is back.

I think maybe "Molly" suffers from "knowing the path" rather than "walking the path" but its still good technical stuff which is lacking on the forum these days so just maybe we should have some technical discussions? There is an element of truth in there?

For example, it is a good idea to warm an engine up before starting it, but maybe impractical and just not worth the hassle.

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

I think maybe "Molly" suffers from "knowing the path" rather than "walking the path" but its still good technical stuff which is lacking on the forum these days so just maybe we should have some technical discussions? There is an element of truth in there?

For example, it is a good idea to warm an engine up before starting it, but maybe impractical and just not worth the hassle.

The subject of cylinder glazing in basic, (No ECU or common rail injection system), marine diesels should be something most canal boat owners are made aware of, along with how much power you need in simple terms, as it might be better to relate that figure to the weight of the boat as most travel lifts and modern cranes can measure the weight, although we should be talking displacement, canal boats are similar in hull shape terms, so it does work. It sure does not for other boats, as form and type of the hull becomes important in terms of how much power is required.

 

Warming an engine correctly before a cold start is far easier than folks think it is, although only professsional or real long term owners who like to think of an engine block as something you keep as long as possible, make an effort to get it right in throttle position terms in particular, (It must not over rev when first started, its better it stalls and you figure out that the go lever needs advancing a bit before trying again),  rather than a disposable item. If your engine bay is not heated, then fitting heat pads to the sump and using them to reduce the wear factors and warm up time is easy, just Google Wolverine to see a good range of both 12V and 240/115V AC heat pads. 

  Most small marine diesel engine companies have no interest in an engine lasting as long as possible, so would never mention how to cold start their diesel, with the exception of Volvo and Bukh. 

  Oddly enough we are going backwards in engine wear prevention terms to some extent, as they used to sell decoke kits that were listed in the parts catalogue and the procedure described in the manual, in addition to the use of a summer and winter oil of different viscosities if pre heating is not practical. 

 

Back on topic and the Beta vs Canaline question does depend on 2 factors that were not discussed, firstly your budget, and secondly what you are using your boat for and total hours each year. The decision will also effect how much you can sell the boat for, as Beta Marine diesel have a real good reputation. How good the warranty is should also be mentioned. Beta for example fitted a bad batch of alternators, but replaced them without too much grief about why they had failed. Also the wiring loom plug and socket seems to cause issues after around 10 to 20 years according to useage. That seems to be due to the use of untinned wire and a loom connector that does not have Gold plated terminals to prevent long term corrosion. They were the only issues I could find. 

 

The weight of the engine is also something of interest, as I was surprised that the Canaline one is heavier. Not sure which parts or sections are involved. Extra weight has a big effect on fuel economy and basic performance. So in some ways it's interesting to compare engines in weight terms. For example the 36hp Bukh is as heavy as a 50hp Bukh, so is a gas guzzler as a result. I was looking at buying a Bukh 36 to replace a BMC 1500D, BUT gave up as it would have been bad news in performance terms due to the extra 50% weight, although they are one real tough engine in terms of surviving abuse like overheating or starting in minus 30C.  

The need to make changes to the engine beds when changing the type of engine is interesting as it can be fairly expensive in some cases. Beta do make special adapter kits for the engine mounts, but that does not mean the old beds don't need modifying as mine did. Also using the old shaft and flange can result in the need for an adater plate as it did for the BMC to Beta 30. Those extra costs amounted to a bill of 500 quid, so installation costs can add up. 

Edited by Lifeboat Elsie May
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As far as I am aware Bukh make just one 3 cylinder block and to go from around 36 BHP to 48 BHP they add a turbocharger, so how can a 36BHP be as heavy as a 48 BHP one? Then, in the longevity stakes one neds to question if a turbocharged engine with higher cylinder pressures and thus load on the pistons, especially side thrust, and bearings will last as long as one more lightly loaded.

 

How one can claim that extra weight in a displacement boat will affect fuel economy to any significant extent is beyond me. I am sure the heavier the boat is the greater the fuel consumption BUT given two identical hulls that have been correctly ballasted and I think the overall weight of both boats will be the same, the one with the heavier engine having a bit less ballast. It is true that that having heavier moving internal parts will demand more fuel each time you accelerate the engine n to overcome inertia, but the wight of the block and marine parts will not affect this, so an engine with a cast iron block and cast iron marinising parts will weigh more than one that use aluminium for those parts, yet the internal moving parts may well weigh the same.

 

I think far too much theory without very much experience of inland boats. We have 50 year old engines that have never been overhauled, yet they have never seen any form of pre-heating, and are still giving good service. Would it ever be worth the initial costs plus the running costa of fitting a pre-heater?

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

As far as I am aware Bukh make just one 3 cylinder block and to go from around 36 BHP to 48 BHP they add a turbocharger, so how can a 36BHP be as heavy as a 48 BHP one? Then, in the longevity stakes one neds to question if a turbocharged engine with higher cylinder pressures and thus load on the pistons, especially side thrust, and bearings will last as long as one more lightly loaded.

 

How one can claim that extra weight in a displacement boat will affect fuel economy to any significant extent is beyond me. I am sure the heavier the boat is the greater the fuel consumption BUT given two identical hulls that have been correctly ballasted and I think the overall weight of both boats will be the same, the one with the heavier engine having a bit less ballast. It is true that that having heavier moving internal parts will demand more fuel each time you accelerate the engine n to overcome inertia, but the wight of the block and marine parts will not affect this, so an engine with a cast iron block and cast iron marinising parts will weigh more than one that use aluminium for those parts, yet the internal moving parts may well weigh the same.

 

I think far too much theory without very much experience of inland boats. We have 50 year old engines that have never been overhauled, yet they have never seen any form of pre-heating, and are still giving good service. Would it ever be worth the initial costs plus the running costa of fitting a pre-heater?

Sorry I meant a 50hp average marine diesel, They are twice the weight of the Yanmars. The Bukh 36 version I looked at was around 50% heavier and bigger than the Beta 35 etc. I really do like their design but not the weight. I agree about the tubo versions being bad news in the long term. They are also something of an oil drip issue once the bearings start to wear the seal and replacing the turbo can be a nightmare in some boats. The Garrets in the 350 Detroits of one sport fishing boat I skippered did sound real good though and were OK after 25 years. 

 

I did not know you could remove the ballast so easily in a steel boat. So what form is it in. ??  The age of the engine is not such an isssue as the hours and number of stop starts, so if it's under good load and does long run times, then it can clock up some biblical hours. The local Beta dealer who sees a lot of engine issues is still insistant the cylinder glazing from using low loadings is the main deamon along with failing to service the engine correctly. That issue does effect a lot of sport fishing boats that are trolling or boats using the engine as a battery charger.

  The stick pre heaters are cheap, just look up Wolverine and enter the Watts, as they are not a big ticket item and save time and fuel to some extent. Lots of different sizes. Coolant pre heaters are expensive and would be tricky to install once the engine is fitted. 

 

Back to ballast, if you use a heavier engine, but remove the same weight of ballast, that raises the C of G, so unless you have a lot of ballast I would have thought that might not be allowed. If you fit a lighter engine it would be OK to remove some ballast as the C of G is lower. Do canal boaters just ignore any stabilty issues as regards the amount carried when the boat was first built or certified ?? 

Edited by Lifeboat Elsie May
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6 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

 

Sorry I meant a 50hp average marine diesel, They are twice the weight of the Yanmars. The Bukh 36 version I looked at was around 50% heavier and bigger than the Beta 35 etc. I really do like their design but not the weight. I agree about the tubo versions being bad news in the long term. They are also something of an oil drip issue once the bearings start to wear the seal and replacing the turbo can be a nightmare in some boats. The Garrets in the 350 Detroits of one sport fishing boat I skippered did sound real good though and were OK after 25 years. 

 

I did not know you could remove the ballast so easily in a steel boat. So what form is it in. ??  The age of the engine is not such an isssue as the hours and number of stop starts, so if it's under good load and does long run times, then it can clock up some biblical hours. The local Beta dealer who sees a lot of engine issues is still insistant the cylinder glazing from using low loadings is the main deamon along with failing to service the engine correctly. That issue does effect a lot of sport fishing boats that are trolling or boats using the engine as a battery charger.

  The stick pre heaters are cheap, just look up Wolverine and enter the Watts, as they are not a big ticket item and save time and fuel to some extent. Lots of different sizes. Coolant pre heaters are expensive and would be tricky to install once the engine is fitted. 

More and more senseless twaddle. Tony, please stop encouraging him.  It was bad enough when he had Liquid Moly to rant about. Its obvious he knows nothing about canal boats if he doesn't know about ballasting.

Molly, find another forum please and go and annoy them instead, we have had enough of you.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

More and more senseless twaddle. Tony, please stop encouraging him.  It was bad enough when he had Liquid Moly to rant about. Its obvious he knows nothing about canal boats if he doesn't know about ballasting.

Molly, find another forum please and go and annoy them instead, we have had enough of you.

 

If I were sure any new or potential boaters coming onto the forum would know it is best to ignore him, then I would be very happy to ignore the apparent theory heavy - practical experience light stuff he pedals as absolute fact, but I don't think that we can be sure of that, and the Mods have declined to act on his posts when requested. So I feel he needs countering.

 

I ask you, he seems to have no idea about how inland boats are ballasted - even GRP cruisers. He tries to compare two different makes, powers, and weight of engine so apples and oranges, and has failed to provide HIS calculations of initial and running costs of pre-heaters compared with the cost of shortened engine life costs. In other words, just how cost-effective use a pre-heater is. The notion of adding a 12/24V engine preheater seems to totally ignore the shortage of 12/24V electricity and the potential effects on battery life - especially in winter, when solar input is low.

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My engine does have provision for fitting a heater though I have no plans to do so. The heater is a water jacket heater rather than a sump oil heater so John Deere think getting the bores warm is more important than getting the oil warm, probably because modern multigrades perform well.

(and probably for really cold starts too 😀)

 

Pre pressurising the oil is another way to reduce start up wear, and another thing that is not really worth doing on a canal boat.

 

as I said, there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

My engine does have provision for fitting a heater though I have no plans to do so. The heater is a water jacket heater rather than a sump oil heater so John Deere think getting the bores warm is more important than getting the oil warm, probably because modern multigrades perform well.

(and probably for really cold starts too 😀)

 

Pre pressurising the oil is another way to reduce start up wear, and another thing that is not really worth doing on a canal boat.

 

as I said, there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

Yes I am interested in learning more about canal boats, as the boat I'm building did go along some of the Scottish canals. I think my boats 8ft odd beam would be too much for the canals down South. Coolant pre heaters are great as they allow you to just jump in a boat or truck and go. 

  The real issue is when an error is made by opening the throotle too far to help the cold engine start and not being fast enough to close it back towards idle as the engine starts, then is when the real harm is done even with a multi grade. Also it results in additional mostly Carbon related deposits, particularly if the glow plugs are not on for long enough. 

  Oddly enough although modern multigrades help reduce cold start wear, it's the anti wear additives that protect the engine for a few seconds when cold starting even with an 0W30, so using cheap oil that lacks them in many cases makes a cold start more significant. I would note that you defo can't use too low a viscosity oil in some engines that use engine oil in the gearbox. So it's a matter of checking the owners manual. 

  Either way I really hate cold starting a diesel too often, so like any system that can raise the oil and preferably block temperture. Heating the oil will do that but takes longer. 

  

Also drifting off topic a bit, how many hybrid electric or all electric boats are you seeing on the canals. I stiil plan to fit a 5kW 48V DC go kart motor so I can do a few knots in calm conditions in the summer with what might be a total of 500W of panels. Pic is my engine less lifeboat last year, as I installed a small Houdini hatch between the panels. I should add another 200W with a pair of 50W panels over the rescue deck and 2 more over the cockpit arch. Some similar fairly light boats, (Aluminium hull), have been capable of 2 to even 3 knots in one case in calm condition like a canal. One chap even rigged a set of pedals for a cloudy day! I've always been surprised at how little power it takes to move a full displacement hull when it's dead calm and the hull is clean etc. So can't understand why some canal only boats are still fitting 38hp diesels to any narrowboat that is only allowed to do 4 mph I think it is, or 5 on a river.

 

What RPM are they typically using on say a bigger 60ft steel canal boat ?? 

 

  

Full length from above.jpg

17064804_web1_Race2Alaska5.0528.jpg

Edited by Lifeboat Elsie May
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4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I The notion of adding a 12/24V engine preheater seems to totally ignore the shortage of 12/24V electricity and the potential effects on battery life - especially in winter, when solar input is low.

Thats easy, you power it from the batteries then run on tickover for 4 hours to recharge them

2 hours ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Yes I am interested in learning more about canal boats, as the boat I'm building did go along some of the Scottish canals. I think my boats 8ft odd beam would be too much for the canals down South. Coolant pre heaters are great as they allow you to just jump in a boat or truck and go. 

  The real issue is when an error is made by opening the throotle too far to help the cold engine start and not being fast enough to close it back towards idle as the engine starts, then is when the real harm is done even with a multi grade. Also it results in additional mostly Carbon related deposits, particularly if the glow plugs are not on for long enough. 

  Oddly enough although modern multigrades help reduce cold start wear, it's the anti wear additives that protect the engine for a few seconds when cold starting even with an 0W30, so using cheap oil that lacks them in many cases makes a cold start more significant. I would note that you defo can't use too low a viscosity oil in some engines that use engine oil in the gearbox. So it's a matter of checking the owners manual. 

  Either way I really hate cold starting a diesel too often, so like any system that can raise the oil and preferably block temperture. Heating the oil will do that but takes longer. 

  

Also drifting off topic a bit, how many hybrid electric or all electric boats are you seeing on the canals. I stiil plan to fit a 5kW 48V DC go kart motor so I can do a few knots in calm conditions in the summer with what might be a total of 500W of panels. Pic is my engine less lifeboat last year, as I installed a small Houdini hatch between the panels. I should add another 200W with a pair of 50W panels over the rescue deck and 2 more over the cockpit arch. Some similar fairly light boats, (Aluminium hull), have been capable of 2 to even 3 knots in one case in calm condition like a canal. One chap even rigged a set of pedals for a cloudy day! I've always been surprised at how little power it takes to move a full displacement hull when it's dead calm and the hull is clean etc. So can't understand why some canal only boats are still fitting 38hp diesels to any narrowboat that is only allowed to do 4 mph I think it is, or 5 on a river.

 

What RPM are they typically using on say a bigger 60ft steel canal boat ?? 

 

  

Full length from above.jpg

 

I am surprised you haven't mentioned pre lub pumps to get oil circulation into all moving parts prior to starting

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28 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats easy, you power it from the batteries then run on tickover for 4 hours to recharge them

I am surprised you haven't mentioned pre lub pumps to get oil circulation into all moving parts prior to starting

Do any of the companies making smaller marine diesel sell or have pre lube pump available, Never heard of one fitted to a small diesel. Oddly enough fitted dual action or bypass oil filters, (One normal and one 2 micron oil filters), to keep the oil clean and extend its life as used in bigger trucks has been fitted to a few engines by go green owners as it allow you to do much longer oil change intervals. 

 

I suspect that using one could be interesting if the oil valve stuck or pump ran for too long and resulted in a hydraulic lock and broken engine. No one in Bobs forum of oil sniffers has suggested trying to fit one to a small diesel.

Saving Money with Prelube Pumps | Pumps & Systems (pumpsandsystems.com)

 

PS: How much is a Canaline 38 and I'm interested in what size engine in HP terms a steel narrowboat of 60ft needs, rather than has. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Loads of boats are already fitted with pre heaters😉

They are used to run the central heating instead of heating the engine.

 

Might be viable to fit a small radiator in the engine bay in some cases where you are not using enough batteries rather than furnance bricks or some way of ballasting. I was daft enough to think a heavy steel beam inside or outside the hull was the way a steel canal boat was ballasted. They use those on some lifeboats as both rock deflectors all the way aft past the rudder and ballast. 

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10 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Might be viable to fit a small radiator in the engine bay

You miss the point by a country mile.

Eberspacher, Webasto and other heaters of that ilk were originally developed as pre heaters for engines using the engines cooling system, usually used in cold countries in the winter. Its only recently that they have been used on boats  for central heating.

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