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Heating - stove or central heating?


katie_hannah

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I'm looking at getting a boat which currently doesn't haven't any heating inside.  A webasto central heating system has been recommended to me however it seems cheaper to install a multifuel stove and maybe use an electric radiator on occasion (we plan to be moored up).  

 

What would you recommend? Is a multifuel stove enough to keep warm in the winter, or is the convenience of central heating worth the cost?

 

Also if we decide to go for a stove, what system would you recommend for heating water?  It currently has a calorifier which can heat water when the engine is on but I don't fancy having to run the engine all the time.

 

Ant suggestions would be much appreciated, thanks! 

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Multi fuel stove is the best way to heat a boat but you really should have two forms of heating then if one fails in the middle of winter you will still be warm.

If you have a stove with a backboiler, that can run your central heating as well.

Edited by Rickent
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4 minutes ago, Rickent said:

Multi fuel stove is the best way to heat a boat but you really should have two forms of heating then if one fails in the middle of winter you will still be warm.

If you have a stove with a backboiler, that can run your central heating as well.

And heat the calorifier too, without burning diesel, silently and no electricity.  Solid fuel can burn almost anything and a gravity circulation system is fool proof, little to go wrong.

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12 minutes ago, Rickent said:

Multi fuel stove is the best way to heat a boat but you really should have two forms of heating then if one fails in the middle of winter you will still be warm.

If you have a stove with a backboiler, that can run your central heating as well.

 

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

And heat the calorifier too, without burning diesel, silently and no electricity.  Solid fuel can burn almost anything and a gravity circulation system is fool proof, little to go wrong.

 

This sounds like a great option, we were told it would cost about £2,500 to install webasto central heating, would the stove with backboiler cost more/less/similar do you think?

 

For it to heat the calorifier would the calorifier have to be a 2 coil one? (I'm new to narrowboats so I've been reading a lot and I don't know if I've fully got the gist of all the technical stuff so I might not be making much sense!)

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Central heating from a stove/backboiler doesn't actually produce any more heat that the same stove without central heating, it just distributes that heat more evenly throughout the boat. However if the boat isn't that long and the stove is located in the middle then you'll get good heat distribution anyway without radiators. 

 

Heating a calorifier with a stove is generally best done with a circulation pump in the central heating system rather than thermocycling (convection/gravity) without a pump, which is the way a lot of boat stove central heating systems work. No pump means no pump to go wrong but the plumbing needs to be more carefully configured. You can thermocycle through a calorifier but I think you'd need a wide bore heating coil to make it work and if the stove is far from the calorifier forget about that and fit a pump.

Edited by blackrose
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22 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Central heating from a stove/backboiler doesn't actually produce any more heat that the same stove without central heating, it just distributes that heat more evenly throughout the boat. However if the boat isn't that long and the stove is located in the middle then you'll get good heat distribution anyway without radiators. 

 

Heating a calorifier with a stove is generally best done with a circulation pump in the central heating system rather than thermocycling (convection/gravity) without a pump, which is the way a lot of boat stove central heating systems work. No pump means no pump to go wrong but the plumbing needs to be more carefully configured. You can thermocycle through a calorifier but I think you'd need a wide bore heating coil to make it work and if the stove is far from the calorifier forget about that and fit a pump.

We have central heating via Alde boiler but very rarely use it, our stove heats up the whole boat in winter and we really do get toasty.20190203_201435.jpg.f639d4b72e8c57ce50995986befdf7eb.jpg

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Thanks everyone for your input, I've got lots to think about!

 

I'm thinking about installing an immersion heater as we plan to be moored up most of the time.  Do we need a twin coil calorifier to do this? Will we need someone to come and fit it or is it fairly easy? 

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1 hour ago, katie_hannah said:

Thanks everyone for your input, I've got lots to think about!

 

I'm thinking about installing an immersion heater as we plan to be moored up most of the time.  Do we need a twin coil calorifier to do this? Will we need someone to come and fit it or is it fairly easy? 

You do not need a second coil in the calorifier to fit an immersion heater. Your existing calorifier may have an immersion heater boss hidden under the insulation. If not something called an Essex Flange could be used to fit the heater into the calorifier. Unless you are fully competent in mains wiring and all it entails like galvanic isolators/isolation transformer, and RCD etc I would advise professional installation.

 

The GI or IT help prevent the hull being eaten away by stray electric currents when connected to the shore supply.

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12 hours ago, katie_hannah said:

I'm looking at getting a boat which currently doesn't haven't any heating inside.  A webasto central heating system has been recommended to me however it seems cheaper to install a multifuel stove and maybe use an electric radiator on occasion (we plan to be moored up).  

 

What would you recommend? Is a multifuel stove enough to keep warm in the winter, or is the convenience of central heating worth the cost?

 

Also if we decide to go for a stove, what system would you recommend for heating water?  It currently has a calorifier which can heat water when the engine is on but I don't fancy having to run the engine all the time.

 

Ant suggestions would be much appreciated, thanks! 

If you fit a Webasto type system,(there are other makes available) be sure to have it sized correctly, these heaters need to run hard, if problems are to be avoided.

 

 

Bod.

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A solid fuel stove with back boiler would always be my choice, stove at one end, rads all the way down to the other end, one of the rads being a towel rail in the bathroom.

Yes, fit a calorifier to run off the engine heating, and an electric immersion heater as well.

Webasto, well I have had one and used it, but only on a boat with a squirrel stove fitted in the middle of the boat with no back boiler, a system I would never have again.

I am an agnostic when it comes to galvanic corrosion. The last three boats I lived on did not have them, and all three were moored in marinas and plugged in to shorelines. And had no evidence of corrosion. So you have to decide.

 

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33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You do not need a second coil in the calorifier to fit an immersion heater. Your existing calorifier may have an immersion heater boss hidden under the insulation. If not something called an Essex Flange could be used to fit the heater into the calorifier. Unless you are fully competent in mains wiring and all it entails like galvanic isolators/isolation transformer, and RCD etc I would advise professional installation.

 

The GI or IT help prevent the hull being eaten away by stray electric currents when connected to the shore supply.

That's really helpful, thank you. I think we'll get a professional for that! 

18 minutes ago, Bod said:

If you fit a Webasto type system,(there are other makes available) be sure to have it sized correctly, these heaters need to run hard, if problems are to be avoided.

 

 

Bod.

Good to know, thanks! 

13 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

A solid fuel stove with back boiler would always be my choice, stove at one end, rads all the way down to the other end, one of the rads being a towel rail in the bathroom.

Yes, fit a calorifier to run off the engine heating, and an electric immersion heater as well.

Webasto, well I have had one and used it, but only on a boat with a squirrel stove fitted in the middle of the boat with no back boiler, a system I would never have again.

I am an agnostic when it comes to galvanic corrosion. The last three boats I lived on did not have them, and all three were moored in marinas and plugged in to shorelines. And had no evidence of corrosion. So you have to decide.

 

Stove with a back boiler sounds like a good route to go down, I'll price it up and hopefully we can get that installed

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You will get a number of opinions on here. With respect to Stillearning, the best system in my experience is a solid fuel stove in the middle of boat, this heats all main living area's, saloon, galley and bed room (under tug deck on my boat). I didn't fit a back boiler because of the need to fit big copper pipes for it to thermo-cycle or a pump which means every time you use your fire, you are also using electric and it is something else to breakdown. I fitted Webasto for hot water via calorifier and to radiators if needed - nice to have option to put radiators on when it not cold enough to light a fire. Calorifier also heated from engine and mains electric if required. I would buy a twin coil calorifier (you can join both coils together if you decide to only use one) leaves you options to add say a Webasto at a later date.

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13 hours ago, Rickent said:

 

Using a solid fuel fire with a pump for the circulation is a risk. If the pump stops for whatever reason with a good fire going there is going to be a flash heating of the water into steam which in a confined space is highly dangerous.

There has to be something to absorb the heat, like a calorifier or radiators which will circulate on gravity alone.

TD'

 

 

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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17 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Using a solid fuel fire with a pump for the circulation is a risk. If the pump stops for whatever reason with a good fire going there is going to be a flash heating of the water into steam which in a confined space is highly dangerous.

There has to be something to absorb the heat, like a calorifier or radiators which will circulate on gravity alone.

TD'

 

 

 

I agree - gravity circulation is the way to go if at all possible.

 

If you must go for a pumped system i would fit a pipe stat on the hot stove outlet pipe in parallel with the manual pump switch is if you forgot to turn the pump on it would turn on itself. As the typical pumps are centrifugal so allow circulation to pass through a stopped pump I may fit a second pump as well so there is at least some redundancy.

 

If the system did boil you would get very hot rusty water - antifreeze mixture and steam spewing out of the header tank. Whatever you are told never fit a sealed system to a back boiler, it could explode.

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28 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

You could also consider a vaporising oil stove like a Bubble. All the advantages of solid fuel without the mess or the need to store wood/coal etc.

 

If you look at the flues on the Bubblestove's show trailer you will see that they are far taller than most can sensibly accommodate on a narrowboat. This is to maximise the chimney draw to get a clean burn. I would be wary about any quoted heat output unless it was in a table that also included flue height.

 

Also be aware that if you don't want to pay something in excess of filling station prices for the fuel you will need an extra tank. This applies to any diesel fuled heater.

 

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Total agreement with Tony.

 

49 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you look at the flues on the Bubblestove's show trailer you will see that they are far taller than most can sensibly accommodate on a narrowboat. This is to maximise the chimney draw to get a clean burn. I would be wary about any quoted heat output unless it was in a table that also included flue height.

 

Also be aware that if you don't want to pay something in excess of filling station prices for the fuel you will need an extra tank. This applies to any diesel fuled heater.

 

I have seen more removed than fitted!  Without a long flue extension they do not pull properly. One was so bad it covered a marina in black soot in less than an hour.

There is only one boat i know with an oil burner of this type that works, the guy laced his diesel with kerosine and cleaned it every day, ran it at maximum when lit.

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That water cylinder was quite something, the fact that it held over 300 psi is amazing, most steam locos didn't go above 250 psi working pressure .and that is with really hefty plate. Lesson here is to fit an open expansion / header tank or some other suitable pressure relief thingy.

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41 minutes ago, Bee said:

That water cylinder was quite something, the fact that it held over 300 psi is amazing, most steam locos didn't go above 250 psi working pressure .and that is with really hefty plate. Lesson here is to fit an open expansion / header tank or some other suitable pressure relief thingy.

I would not trust a pressure relief thingy on a sealed system - have both, a safety valve and open header tank.

 

However I would be happy with a second high level breather vented to outside air.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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5 hours ago, katie_hannah said:

That's really helpful, thank you. I think we'll get a professional for that! 

Good to know, thanks! 

Stove with a back boiler sounds like a good route to go down, I'll price it up and hopefully we can get that installed

 I've got a S/F stove with back boiler positioned about 10' down the main cabin . The stove feeds 2 rads by gravity (all in 28mm). The flow is then tee'd with 28mm dropping down (via a ball valve) back into the return pipe. The flow is then continued in 22mm via a 230v circulation pump into Finrads to heat the back cabin. I also have a Eberspacher DW5 feeding rads up the other side of the boat . Can't comment on this as it is only 20 years old and has yet to be commissioned (everything is installed). The twin coil calorifier is fed from the engine and Eberspacher (if it were commissioned). It is also fitted with a 2kw immersion heater supported by either shorepower or built in generator.

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7 hours ago, katie_hannah said:

Thanks everyone for your input, I've got lots to think about!

 

I'm thinking about installing an immersion heater as we plan to be moored up most of the time.  Do we need a twin coil calorifier to do this? 

 

No, but you'll need a twin coil calorifier if you want to heat it from the engine and from the backboiler. 

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In a proper installation the "cylinder" really a calorifier, will have a release valve that operates on both excessive temperature and pressure, its an expensive item.

 

The normal heating sealed system has an expansion vessel and simple pressure release valve. Should this valve fail to open, the water in the system will get well over the boiling point of water as it is under pressure in excess of one atmosphere. When a rupture occurs the whole content of the system will instantly turn to superheated steam. The expansion factor is enormous.

I would not want to be inside a boat when that happens.

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