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Gas water heaters.. got me thinking


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1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Regardless of all the regulations, rules, regs. semantics, pedantry and willy waving can I suggest we agree its not really a sensible idea?

It's a bloody stupid idea.  I said daft earlier but I was being gentle ;)

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why not ?

Why should liveaboards not be subject to the same Gas laws as people living in Bricks & Mortars ?

But why stop at liveaboards?  Surely the danger is the same whether the boat is your primary residence or not?

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

 

But why stop at liveaboards?  Surely the danger is the same whether the boat is your primary residence or not?

Because that's how the law is written - not saying I agree with it, but that's 'how it is'.

 

See post  #21

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Because that's how the law is written - not saying I agree with it, but that's 'how it is'.

 

See post  #21

Yeah, but then we come back full circle that the BSS remit is to protect the public and so they don’t concern themselves with your personal safety - hence ventilation only being an advisory etc. If they included GSIUR regs in their rules then they’re exceeding their stated remit.
 

I have no horse in this race, I’m just trying to think how it might better be approached. 

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7 hours ago, WotEver said:

Not irrelevant to the OP though.  He asked if it would have BSS implications.  No it wouldn't.  If it's a liveaboard then it won't comply with GSIUR regs, but that's a different question.

Thank you to all who posted .

a different answer to what I thought, so if he is not a “Liveaboard” and declares himself as such then theoretically he can 

 Like most said however it’s not a good idea on that I agree 100% , I for one wouldn’t want to 

I will chat to him about this and hopefully change his mind about relocating the water heater as part of the refit 

Chris 

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2 hours ago, Chris-B said:

Thank you to all who posted .

a different answer to what I thought, so if he is not a “Liveaboard” and declares himself as such then theoretically he can 

 Like most said however it’s not a good idea on that I agree 100% , I for one wouldn’t want to 

I will chat to him about this and hopefully change his mind about relocating the water heater as part of the refit 

Chris 

If he is dead (no pun intended) set on the idea I suppose the very least he could do is install a working CO alarm in the sleeping area concerned. Better than nothing but far from ideal IMHO.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

He needs one anyway to pass the BSS

Ah yes of course, if there is an appliance in a cabin it needs a CO alarm.

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Is he actually moving the heater, or just re-organising the internals of the boat?

Also, whilst you now talk about a bedroom, is it actually a separate self contained room or just an area of the cabin that is allocated to sleeping. Any gas burning appliance that is not room sealed has the same effect to the total cabin space on most boats. This makes some difference to the regulations applicable to bricks and mortar.

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4 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Ah yes of course, if there is an appliance in a cabin it needs a CO alarm.

Not quite - the BSS requires you to have a CO alarm in 'living quarters' and 'sleeping quarters' irrespective of the location of any potential CO producing device.

 

 

From the BSS Website.

 

  • in living quarters between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from the appliance
  • in living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
  • in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head
  • before fixing, test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat (or buy an additional alarm)
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53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not quite - the BSS requires you to have a CO alarm in 'living quarters' and 'sleeping quarters' irrespective of the location of any potential CO producing device.

 

 

From the BSS Website.

 

  • in living quarters between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from the appliance
  • in living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
  • in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head
  • before fixing, test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat (or buy an additional alarm)

Mmmmmm.

 

Perhaps any confusion (If there actually was any)  arises from this.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

 

All cabins with a fuel burning appliance should have a CO alarm fitted.

 

If fuel burning appliances, generators or engines are used whilst people sleep, all sleeping quarters will need their own alarms

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Mmmmmm.

 

Perhaps any confusion (If there actually was any)  arises from this.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

 

All cabins with a fuel burning appliance should have a CO alarm fitted.

 

If fuel burning appliances, generators or engines are used whilst people sleep, all sleeping quarters will need their own alarms

 

 

It seems daft but the advice to have the alarm in the room with the appliance is only advisory.

The 'have on in the bedroom' is 'guidance'.

 

 

Screenshot (230).png

Screenshot (231).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

True - but that does nat answer the question about passing the BSS.

 

The guy that 'killed' his girl friend and daughter' by carbon monoxide poisoning was not charged for failing to comply with either the GSIUR or BSS regulations.

I dont think generator exhausts are covered under the GSIUR regs and I dont think his cruiser was their residence

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

All this aggression - the answer is simple and written in law; Jut read the relevant paperwork.

 

If the boat is a liveaboard then the GSIUR regulations apply (The BSS doesn't comment on the subject)

The GSIUR states 

 

Room-sealed appliances 30.—

(1)  No person shall install a gas appliance in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or a shower room unless it is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(2)  No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of more than 14 kilowatt gross heat input in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation unless the appliance is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(3)  No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation and no person shall install an instantaneous water heater unless (in each case)—  

 

 

So the answer is, NO you cannot install a non-room sealed gas water heater in a cupboard in a bedroom of a liveaboard boat

But is a Merco bigger than 14 kilowatt

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10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I dont think generator exhausts are covered under the GSIUR regs and I dont think his cruiser was their residence

Quite - but he was on waters under the 'authority' of the BSS and my point was that he was not charged using BSS failure as justification.

As had been repeatedly said, the BSS requirements are not to protect those on the boat, but those moored close by, or others 'walking past'.

 

Had the incident happened now, and he had no CO alarm then he would have contravened the rules, however I would have thought that that would be less important than the charge of Manslaughter.

 

He was found "guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence"

Preston Crown Court heard Mr Eteson, of Hale in Cheshire, had put a generator below deck to run the heating.

Ms Webster, 36, and her daughter, from Leyland in Lancashire, were found dead in the cabin on 1 April 2013.

Mr Eteson's training as a "gas safe" installer should have made potential risks obvious, the jury was told.

Impact statements from the victims' relatives were read out in court.

Nia Webster, Kelly's mother, said she was "totally devastated" and it was "hard to believe they are never going to come back".

Kelly's father Alan Webster said in his statement the family would "never recover from their loss".

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

THE DAFT THING IS you can spend 6 months cruising and 'living aboard' but if you are not a permanent liveaboard then it doesn't need to comply with the GSIUR, and as the BSS don't require it to be checked anyway so  it would pass the BSS

............  but how is a "permanent liveaboard" defined in law?

 

 

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Regardless of the 'guidance' 'rules' 'advisories' or what ever the hell it is. Having a CO alarm fitted in every accommodation space on your average Narrow boat is not going to break the bank. 3 or 4 at most (of the correct type of course).

 

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/fire-angel-co-9b-carbon-monoxide-alarm/?fGB=true&gclid=CjwKCAjw_qb3BRAVEiwAvwq6Vkw2x0lj0h7q5p79KCdhCCaHAS5L55upBOvd5V8VvJrnH_vs_Gb1kBoCnE8QAvD_BwE

 

22 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

............  but how is a "permanent liveaboard" defined in law?

 

 

 

I would say if push came to shove and somebody has died or been seriously injured you may be required to prove you don't live on board by virtue of not having a residential mooring OR if you are a CC'er by having an address you could 'claim' you lived at rather than on the boat.

 

Of course the whole thing is fraught with difficulties such as somebody who does actually live aboard on a non residential mooring or a CC'er who's 'address' is actually just one used for correspondence address. If however suddenly witnesses appear who testify that actually you do live aboard you would probably struggle.

 

Safer (though of course more costly) to just move the boiler out of the sleeping space, especially as the boat is being re fitted anyway.

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
No idea why the same post appeared 4 times
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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It seems daft but the advice to have the alarm in the room with the appliance is only advisory.

The 'have on in the bedroom' is 'guidance'.

It IS daft.  Like much of the BSS, unfortunately. 

 

You're advised to have a CO detector if you have a solid fuel stove, but the previous rule requires a CO detector in the 'living quarters' which is where you're most likely to have a solid fuel stove.  In fact, 6.4.2 would be better written "If any solid fuel appliances or non room-sealed LPG appliances..." and changed from Advisory to Required.

 

Of course, none of this has any impact on the OP's question as to whether the BSS would be affected by the boiler's location.

 

On our last gas inspection in our house I was 'advised' that we could only use all 6 burners on the gas hob if we had the back door open... at which point I decided that the world had gone mad.

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2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It IS daft.  Like much of the BSS, unfortunately. 

 

You're advised to have a CO detector if you have a solid fuel stove, but the previous rule requires a CO detector in the 'living quarters' which is where you're most likely to have a solid fuel stove.  In fact, 6.4.2 would be better written "If any solid fuel appliances or non room-sealed LPG appliances..." and changed from Advisory to Required.

It is almost like the party game where a group take turns in saying a word to add to a sentence.

 

The BSS could be written by 20 people each providing one random sentence in any section.

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For information  

I spoke to the chap again yesterday and he agrees that the best thing to do would be relocate the water heater to the new kitchen area 

I have assisted him with information only and given advice when I felt was  necessary and Wish him good luck with the refit 

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49 minutes ago, Chris-B said:

For information  

I spoke to the chap again yesterday and he agrees that the best thing to do would be relocate the water heater to the new kitchen area 

I have assisted him with information only and given advice when I felt was  necessary and Wish him good luck with the refit 

Nice one! Well done :)

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Had a Morco non room sealed water heater in the living/sleeping area of my last boat.

As well as a CO alarm,the pilot light was always turned off when not being used.

It was quite simple to click the pilot light on when hot water was required.

They have a safety cut off in that if the pilot light blows out,the temperature sensor cuts the gas supply off.

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11 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Had a Morco non room sealed water heater in the living/sleeping area of my last boat.

As well as a CO alarm,the pilot light was always turned off when not being used.

It was quite simple to click the pilot light on when hot water was required.

They have a safety cut off in that if the pilot light blows out,the temperature sensor cuts the gas supply off.

The 'problem' isn't the gas if the pilot light blows out, it is the CO generated whilst in use.

CO is a similar weight to 'air' so just drifts about in the boat (its not lighter than air so it doesn't 'float away') and will accumulate each time the boiler is activated.

 

Without a CO alarm (which you had) the levels can build up. If you know it is there, then, opening doors and windows does allow it to flush out.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The 'problem' isn't the gas if the pilot light blows out, it is the CO generated whilst in use.

CO is a similar weight to 'air' so just drifts about in the boat (its not lighter than air so it doesn't 'float away') and will accumulate each time the boiler is activated.

 

Without a CO alarm (which you had) the levels can build up. If you know it is there, then, opening doors and windows does allow it to flush out.

 

 

But surely Alan,the heat generated by the burner sends the CO up the flue,and also when the pilot light is on.

I always turned the pilot light off at night anyway because of the gentle roar it made ,it used to keep me awake.

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16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is almost like the party game where a group take turns in saying a word to add to a sentence.

 

The BSS could be written by 20 people each providing one random sentence in any section.

Ths first version pretty much was.  I was there.

N

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7 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

But surely Alan,the heat generated by the burner sends the CO up the flue,and also when the pilot light is on.

I always turned the pilot light off at night anyway because of the gentle roar it made ,it used to keep me awake.

That is the theory.  It is not always what happens.  Downdraughts, or a cold flue can easily slow or  stop the exhaust flow.  Any constraint to the flow of air to the heater to dilute the combustion products can  also interfere with what is meant to happen.  Putting the heater in a cupboard could be a good example of this.  Builder provides vents based on the heat input to the appliance.  That gives enough air for combustion,  just, but not a good enough supply that the exhaust hood and flue can get the burnt gases outside, because the heater is meant (designed) to be in free air.

Hence the smoke test to ensure it is actually all working.

N

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