When Did CRT Online Moorings Become So Expensive?

[Naughty Cal]

As the title says really when did CRT's online moorings become so expensive?

 

We have been tentatively looking around for where we might keep the boat next year and had a quick look at what the local CRT online moorings might be priced like. We were shocked. A pontoon mooring at Torksey is only £40 less per year than we are currently paying at Burton Waters where we have full facilities, 24 hour security and workshop facilities to hand.

 

Similarly West Stockwith is only about a £100 less and offers much less security.

 

Then there were moorings at Bardney and Cranfleet that were little more than rings to moor too and they are not vastly cheaper either.

 

We might end up staying put at this rate  

[Tracy D'arth]

8 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

As the title says really when did CRT's online moorings become so expensive?

 

We have been tentatively looking around for where we might keep the boat next year and had a quick look at what the local CRT online moorings might be priced like. We were shocked. A pontoon mooring at Torksey is only £40 less per year than we are currently paying at Burton Waters where we have full facilities, 24 hour security and workshop facilities to hand.

 

Similarly West Stockwith is only about a £100 less and offers much less security.

 

Then there were moorings at Bardney and Cranfleet that were little more than rings to moor too and they are not vastly cheaper either.

 

We might end up staying put at this rate  

Its well established fact that C&RT do not want online linear moorers. They want everyone in marinas where they are easier to keep a check on rather than walking the towpath. Less staff again you see.

[magnetman]

The prices started going up when the auction system was introduced about ten or so years ago. 

 

The residential CRT mooring one of my boats is on was £6k ten years ago now £9.5k. And going up because there is relatively high turnover despite only 3 moorings and auctions always achieved high prices (well over the current "standard rate). 

 

Auction is for 3 years then you are offered the mooring yearly for the existing standard rate. 

 

This rate is obviously liable to rise if people are paying so much at auction. 

Which is what happened. I used the auction system so am partly to blame for my own increasing mooring fee !!

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by magnetman

[David Mack]

And the fact that online moorings with no security and few facilities, compared with a marina, are so expensive, must be a contributory factor in many boaters (liveaboards and non liveaboards) choosing not to pay for a mooring at all, and to CC instead.

[cuthound]

Some people are happy to pay a premium for not being in a "boat park", rather thsn have the additional security and facilities of a marina.

 

As magnetman has said, the auction system will force prices up in periods ofvhigh demand.

[Naughty Cal]

I wouldn't say that these are areas of high demand. There are plenty of moorings available at each of the sites.

 

And the moorings we have looked at are all very similar to marina moorings in that they are all on finger jetties in close proximity to the next door boat. So no benefit of views from the boat or no close neighbours, they are essentially "boat parks" on a smaller scale.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

As the title says really when did CRT's online moorings become so expensive?

 

We have been tentatively looking around for where we might keep the boat next year and had a quick look at what the local CRT online moorings might be priced like. We were shocked. A pontoon mooring at Torksey is only £40 less per year than we are currently paying at Burton Waters where we have full facilities, 24 hour security and workshop facilities to hand.

 

Similarly West Stockwith is only about a £100 less and offers much less security.

 

Then there were moorings at Bardney and Cranfleet that were little more than rings to moor too and they are not vastly cheaper either.

 

We might end up staying put at this rate  

They charge what people are prepared to pay, its business

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I wouldn't say that these are areas of high demand. There are plenty of moorings available at each of the sites.

 

And the moorings we have looked at are all very similar to marina moorings in that they are all on finger jetties in close proximity to the next door boat. So no benefit of views from the boat or no close neighbours, they are essentially "boat parks" on a smaller scale.

 

 

C&RT do a frequent 'secret shopper' of all moorings and mooring operators in a region and publish a report (they don't publish competitors pricing, just their own)

 

It shows who they are comparing with, and the facilities offered by them :

 

Extracts from one a year or two ago :

 

We have made the pricing recommendations below based on a thorough review of auction results and local knowledge. It is our policy, set at Board level, to set prices which reflect market rates and to compete fairly with private operators. The Trust has neither powers nor duty to provide subsidised moorings. If you feel that the price decision made for your mooring site is unjustified having read this report, we ask that you write to the Head of Direct Managed Moorings explaining why you think it is the case. Please explain the reasoning for your challenge including evidence such as price and descriptions of nearby privately operated mooring sites. We will not amend the price without this evidence. We will consider your representation and respond in writing within two working weeks. If you are not satisfied with the response, you may request that the matter is dealt with through our formal complaints procedure.

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They charge what people are prepared to pay, its business

True. They just don't seem to offer very good value for money anymore.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Naughty Cal said:

True. They just don't seem to offer very good value for money anymore.

C&RT do a frequent 'secret shopper' of all moorings and mooring operators in a region and publish a report (they don't publish competitors pricing, just their own)

 

It shows who they are comparing with, and the facilities offered by them :

 

Extracts from one a year or two ago :

 

We have made the pricing recommendations below based on a thorough review of auction results and local knowledge. It is our policy, set at Board level, to set prices which reflect market rates and to compete fairly with private operators. The Trust has neither powers nor duty to provide subsidised moorings. If you feel that the price decision made for your mooring site is unjustified having read this report, we ask that you write to the Head of Direct Managed Moorings explaining why you think it is the case. Please explain the reasoning for your challenge including evidence such as price and descriptions of nearby privately operated mooring sites. We will not amend the price without this evidence. We will consider your representation and respond in writing within two working weeks. If you are not satisfied with the response, you may request that the matter is dealt with through our formal complaints procedure.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Competitors Moorings

 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

25 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Some people are happy to pay a premium for not being in a "boat park", rather thsn have the additional security and facilities of a marina.

 

As magnetman has said, the auction system will force prices up in periods ofvhigh demand.

Spot on. I for one and I am not alone will pay more for an online mooring than some orrible caravan park for boats, moved more than once and paid much more. Boaters who winter Moor here pay more than in a marina. 

[Mike Todd]

34 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They charge what people are prepared to pay, its business

Not entirely (BWML is different). As a semi-public body, CaRT - as I understand ti - still have to do as BW before them and not compete unfairly with nearby commercial operators. As a result they are required to charge at the level of other local moorings - hence it is inevitable that they will rise at the same rate as commercially operated moorings, which are a business.

 

Of course, as with house prices and rents, setting comparables is a matter of judgement which can sometimes come unstuck.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Not entirely (BWML is different). As a semi-public body, CaRT - as I understand ti - still have to do as BW before them and not compete unfairly with nearby commercial operators. As a result they are required to charge at the level of other local moorings - hence it is inevitable that they will rise at the same rate as commercially operated moorings, which are a business.

 

Of course, as with house prices and rents, setting comparables is a matter of judgement which can sometimes come unstuck.

 

But BWML were sold off last year to an MBO funded by Lloyds bank.

They are no longer part of C&RT, they are an independent 'Commercial Operator'.

[Naughty Cal]

26 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Spot on. I for one and I am not alone will pay more for an online mooring than some orrible caravan park for boats, moved more than once and paid much more. Boaters who winter Moor here pay more than in a marina. 

On a nice rural mooring with nice views I could understand it, but the moorings we looked at are finger jetties with the next boat closer too yours then we are in a marina!!

 

I certainly think that they have set the prices too high on the Torksey and West Stockwith moorings which might explain why there are so many currently available.

[Mike Adams]

My understanding is that CaRT as a charity cannot be seen to be subsidising any individual out of charitable funds and therefore have to be charging a market rate for moorings. I think this excuse was given by the National Trust when they started hiking their mooring rates on the River Wey. I agree many CaRT moorings are overpriced for the leisure market but for someone living aboard below the radar probably represent good value and less hassle than a marina.

[Arthur Marshall]

The original EOG mooring fee was supposed to be half of what a normal online mooring would cost.  On the Macc, my farm moorings have never been more that £500 a year (no facilities whatsoever) and yet CRT are charging me a fee of over £600.  If they did a survey of local moorings, I reckon they should be charging me around £300 at the most.  But if they're using their own moorings as a comparison, when they can set whatever fee they like plus some auctions, the whole rationale becomes a nonsense.

[sirweste]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

And the fact that online moorings with no security and few facilities, compared with a marina, are so expensive, must be a contributory factor in many boaters (liveaboards and non liveaboards) choosing not to pay for a mooring at all, and to CC instead.

Yep, there's a few dumpers around here that I would guess would have a perm mooring rather than doing a quick shuffle every 2 weeks. I certainly choose to CC due to linear mooring costs (boat parks don't appeal to me). 

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But BWML were sold off last year to an MBO funded by Lloyds bank.

They are no longer part of C&RT, they are an independent 'Commercial Operator'.

That's why I said it was different!

 

But I think we are ta;king about CaRT Moorings . . . 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Mike Todd

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Not entirely (BWML is different). As a semi-public body, CaRT - as I understand ti - still have to do as BW before them and not compete unfairly with nearby commercial operators. As a result they are required to charge at the level of other local moorings - hence it is inevitable that they will rise at the same rate as commercially operated moorings, which are a business.

 

Of course, as with house prices and rents, setting comparables is a matter of judgement which can sometimes come unstuck.

How does that fit in with the tender system where the highest bidder gets it even if its more than local marinas etc.

[Mike Todd]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How does that fit in with the tender system where the highest bidder gets it even if its more than local marinas etc.

Obviously because some people consider that such a mooring is more desirable . . . market forces again. (Just ask the question, when is it right to leave matters to 'the market')

[magnetman]

High prices at auction directly benefit local marinas because it means they can also raise prices. 

 

Apparently the prices in Limehouse marina are affected by the auction prices of CRT moorings in the area...  The marina has a "waiting list" and transferable moorings the CRT moorings have neither. 

 

One would not expect marinas to complain if CRT were enabling them to raise prices...

 

It works both ways. CRT set prices according to local rates and so do marinas .

 

Therefore the auction system is mutually beneficial in areas of higher demand. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by magnetman

[LEO]

Hi,

Historically BW canalside  mooring were cheap, when I started in 1975, they were much cheaper than say, Thames side moorings my mate moored a boat at Wallingford, This situation remained for years, 

 

I recall my attention was drawn to an article  in the waterways press about 15 years ago, which suggested BW were becoming much more business minded and someone in the upper echelons asked the question 'why are floating moorings in estuaries so much more expensive than inland waterways'.

 

They quoted examples such as Hamble on the South coast. this set the cogs in motion and mooring costs started to rise.

 

BW changed to CRT, boat ownership and demand increased dramatically and the 'leapfrog' situation rapidly crept into pricing of moorings and  boatowners reach the situation we are in now.

 

Introduce the liveaboard situation on CRT leisure moorings and you realise why prices have gone ballistic.

[doratheexplorer]

20 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its well established fact that C&RT do not want online linear moorers. They want everyone in marinas where they are easier to keep a check on rather than walking the towpath. Less staff again you see.

That doesn't explain why CRT prices are similarly priced in town/city centre basins which large numbers of boats.  It also doesn't make sense when it's clearly the case that CRT use the money they get from their moorings to pay for maintenance of the wider system.

 

Having said that, my experience of the Waterside Moorings lot is that they're clueless.  There are loads of empty unused moorings which aren't advertised, and in many cases CRT aren't even aware of the situation. 

 

The high prices are probably a symptom of the same incompetance.  I can imagine the national moorings manager looking at why income has dropped and then simply raises prices rather than properly looking at why.

18 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

They charge what people are prepared to pay, its business

Except people don't pay it, which is why so many CRT moorings stand empty.

[magnetman]

There was some talk of a 9:1 ratio of closures. Not sure if this is the right figure or if it applied everywhere but I seem to remember something about 9 marina berths = 1 closed on line mooring locally. This could account for "empty" moorings which are simply ones which the policy dictates do not get re-let.