Government realises boats exist!

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Traveller said:

Well I have heard this twice now and it makes sense to me but I'll ask gain. Why would leisure boaters be treated differently to residential boats? Residential boats with a home mooring have to return to that mooring each night so it is only continuous cruisers who have the freedom.

Because as the law stands (stood ?) you are not allowed to stay 'out', you must return to your main residence each night.

Liveaboards main residence is their boat, a 'leisure' boater's house is his main residence.

2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

But then you have to live within 5 mile of the mooring to get to it anyway, so not gonig to be too much boat movement there.

 

Tell me about it !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Moved the boat over to Y Felinhelli at the end of last year.

[Traveller]

2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Yes there are more restrictions in Wales, our son is currently imprisoned there (not on a boat though)!  I notice in Wales you are not even allowed to stop when you come off your mooring.  But then you have to live within 5 mile of the mooring to get to it anyway, so not gonig to be too much boat movement there.

 

Leisure boaters are different simply because the government regulations say that except for some very specific reasons, like attending a funeral, no one is allowed to be away from their primary residence overnight.  I can't see why a residential boat with a home mooring has to go back there each night, they can cruise freely.  It would be only continuous cruisers who's boat is their primary residence who can cruise freely, even as a CC'er if the boat is not your primary residence you can not stay on it overnight.

It is about going to your main address each night as per the land based folk. A fixed mooring is considered a main address so that is where the boat must end up each night. My fixed address is my house so I have to end up there, although I must also return my boat to its mooring.  This is all about applying the land based rules to the waterways. I think crt have done a reasonable job personally. I have sought further clarification, perhaps others might like to do the same?

[Naughty Cal]

9 minutes ago, Traveller said:

It is about going to your main address each night as per the land based folk. A fixed mooring is considered a main address so that is where the boat must end up each night. My fixed address is my house so I have to end up there, although I must also return my boat to its mooring.  This is all about applying the land based rules to the waterways. I think crt have done a reasonable job personally. I have sought further clarification, perhaps others might like to do the same?

There is nothing on the CRT website that says the boat has to return to its home mooring.

 

You can not stay on it overnight but that doesn't mean it has to go back to its home mooring so long as you go back to your residence at the end of the day. 

 

Whoever you spoke too at CRT is giving you out of date information,  you can check their website for the current guidance. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Naughty Cal

[Traveller]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Because as the law stands (stood ?) you are not allowed to stay 'out', you must return to your main residence each night.

Liveaboards main residence is their boat, a 'leisure' boater's house is his main residence.

 

 

I am not so sure that is absolutely true. It can be argued that if you have a residential mooring then that forms part of your home address. One lives on a boat at a specific place, much like living in a house on a street. We shall see.

[john6767]

16 minutes ago, Traveller said:

It is about going to your main address each night as per the land based folk. A fixed mooring is considered a main address so that is where the boat must end up each night. My fixed address is my house so I have to end up there, although I must also return my boat to its mooring.  This is all about applying the land based rules to the waterways. I think crt have done a reasonable job personally. I have sought further clarification, perhaps others might like to do the same?

As I said the part about returning to your mooring is no longer in CRT’s guidelines, unless I am missing it somehow

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/safety-on-our-waterways/coronavirus/coronavirus-and-boating-faqs

 

 

 

[Traveller]

9 minutes ago, john6767 said:

As I said the part about returning to your mooring is no longer in CRT’s guidelines, unless I am missing it somehow

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/safety-on-our-waterways/coronavirus/coronavirus-and-boating-faqs

 

 

 

I know what you are saying and I know what I am saying and I am not going to get into some pointless right/wrong debate with you. I will contact CRT again and explain the question carefully whilst pointing them to their written advice. Maybe they need to make some amendments to the advice or to their clarification I received a couple of days ago. It might even be that things were changing behind the scenes when the advice was prepared. The fact however remains that the clarification I have says one thing and the website does not say anything different, it just appears to be silent. Time will tell no doubt.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Traveller

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, Traveller said:

I am not so sure that is absolutely true. It can be argued that if you have a residential mooring then that forms part of your home address. One lives on a boat at a specific place, much like living in a house on a street. We shall see.

You are confusing the law and the advice given by the CRT. They are different. Also we need to know if the CRT have changed there license conditions.....not the same as their advice.

The law passed at the end of March talks about 'where you are living'......not about primary residences. I thought I read somewhere a boat could not be a primary residence?

We are living on a boat...well apart from the current 2 weeks as we are changing our boat. We can use the boat to live on as we are living on it.

We do not have a residential mooring, we have a marina mooring and use it for 4-5 months of the year - the rest of the time we are either out an about on the boat or staying in houses. The advice from the CRT is one thing, the law is another. I am not aware where the law or the license conditions state that I cannot be away from our marina (non residential) mooring overnight? Can you show me the link to where I can and cannot be. Not the CRT advice....the law or license conditions?

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

You are confusing the law and the advice given by the CRT. They are different. Also we need to know if the CRT have changed there license conditions.....not the same as their advice.

The law passed at the end of March talks about 'where you are living'......not about primary residences. I thought I read somewhere a boat could not be a primary residence?

We are living on a boat...well apart from the current 2 weeks as we are changing our boat. We can use the boat to live on as we are living on it.

We do not have a residential mooring, we have a marina mooring and use it for 4-5 months of the year - the rest of the time we are either out an about on the boat or staying in houses. The advice from the CRT is one thing, the law is another. I am not aware where the law or the license conditions state that I cannot be away from our marina (non residential) mooring overnight? Can you show me the link to where I can and cannot be. Not the CRT advice....the law or license conditions?

You should follow the COVID-19 guidance if you own or operate a boat in England and use it for:

• leisure
• recreation
• sport
• pleasure
• commercial uses
• retail

 

You must not stay overnight on any boat, unless it’s your primary residence.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-19-coronavirus-using-a-boat-inland-and-on-the-coast

 

 

The Welsh law :

Can I go out in my boat?

Yes, if you can do it locally. Outdoor leisure activities are allowed under the regulations if they can be done within your local area, including sailing, windsurfing and motor boating. This generally means not travelling further than 5 miles to access marinas, ports and harbours.

There should be no overnight stays on boats, no landing in any place beyond the immediate local area and a return to the point of departure. Activities should only be undertaken with crews of people from the same household. We advise boaters to be mindful of the potential impact that you could have on other water users and to not place unnecessary pressure on the RNLI, coastguard and emergency services.    

 

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-regulations-guidance#section-39253

[Traveller]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

You are confusing the law and the advice given by the CRT. They are different. Also we need to know if the CRT have changed there license conditions.....not the same as their advice.

The law passed at the end of March talks about 'where you are living'......not about primary residences. I thought I read somewhere a boat could not be a primary residence?

We are living on a boat...well apart from the current 2 weeks as we are changing our boat. We can use the boat to live on as we are living on it.

We do not have a residential mooring, we have a marina mooring and use it for 4-5 months of the year - the rest of the time we are either out an about on the boat or staying in houses. The advice from the CRT is one thing, the law is another. I am not aware where the law or the license conditions state that I cannot be away from our marina (non residential) mooring overnight? Can you show me the link to where I can and cannot be. Not the CRT advice....the law or license conditions?

What crt say is good enough for me and the advice from crt is based on the rules/laws as put in place by the Govt. Boats be they residential or otherwise are locked in with homes/second homes and holiday homes. And if you are residential and had a winter mooring for say 5 months and it has run out then you become a boat without a home mooring so the need to return to "base" does not apply as it cannot be applied (also confirmed by crt). They are differentiating between a residential boat with a home mooring , a continuous cruiser without and leisure boats. I do not see the relevance of license conditions as they are probably overridden by the state of emergency. I do not suppose the license covers any aspect of the lockdown restrictions anyway. Still as I said earlier I have asked for further clarification given the speed with which things change but at the end of the day what they tell me will suffice. But then I have always been supportive of lockdown and still am; I am not looking for a way to break out and I most certainly am not creating scenarios to achieve that end.

[Arthur Marshall]

The legal position is still, I think, that you cannot be away from home overnight.  You can tweak away at the definitions of "home" or "primary residence",  and possibly even "overnight", and personally I'm quite happy both to play semantics with badly written laws and, like everyone else, to pick and choose which ones I bother to obey.  But it's still important to recognise that the spirit of that particular law was to stop you wandering about the country, risking catching/spreading Covid and possibly stressing a bit of the NHS which wasn't prepared for you to land on it. 

As it's all likely to be dumped in the next few weeks, it's hardly worth getting het up about.

[Dr Bob]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You should follow the COVID-19 guidance if you own or operate a boat in England and use it for:

• leisure
• recreation
• sport
• pleasure
• commercial uses
• retail

 

You must not stay overnight on any boat, unless it’s your primary residence.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-19-coronavirus-using-a-boat-inland-and-on-the-coast

 

 

The Welsh law :

Can I go out in my boat?

Yes, if you can do it locally. Outdoor leisure activities are allowed under the regulations if they can be done within your local area, including sailing, windsurfing and motor boating. This generally means not travelling further than 5 miles to access marinas, ports and harbours.

There should be no overnight stays on boats, no landing in any place beyond the immediate local area and a return to the point of departure. Activities should only be undertaken with crews of people from the same household. We advise boaters to be mindful of the potential impact that you could have on other water users and to not place unnecessary pressure on the RNLI, coastguard and emergency services.    

 

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-regulations-guidance#section-39253

Ok, I am living on my boat...and nowhere else.....so I can stay on it and use the network.

[Naughty Cal]

7 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Ok, I am living on my boat...and nowhere else.....so I can stay on it and use the network.

Yes.

[tree monkey]

7 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Ok, I am living on my boat...and nowhere else.....so I can stay on it and use the network.

As long as you decide who is in your bubble, the duck or Mrs Bob

 

Actually the duck is easy to wipe down to ensure good hygiene, that's a point in its favour 

Edited June 17, 2020 by tree monkey

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You should follow the COVID-19 guidance if you own or operate a boat in England and use it for:

• leisure
• recreation
• sport
• pleasure
• commercial uses
• retail

 

You must not stay overnight on any boat, unless it’s your primary residence.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-19-coronavirus-using-a-boat-inland-and-on-the-coast

 

 

The Welsh law :

Can I go out in my boat?

Yes, if you can do it locally. Outdoor leisure activities are allowed under the regulations if they can be done within your local area, including sailing, windsurfing and motor boating. This generally means not travelling further than 5 miles to access marinas, ports and harbours.

There should be no overnight stays on boats, no landing in any place beyond the immediate local area and a return to the point of departure. Activities should only be undertaken with crews of people from the same household. We advise boaters to be mindful of the potential impact that you could have on other water users and to not place unnecessary pressure on the RNLI, coastguard and emergency services.    

 

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-regulations-guidance#section-39253

Alan, you are usually very precise in what you post, but in this case it is not really answering the question.

My point was that there is a law...the coronavirus act 2020 and there is gov advice. You must obey the law. You can choose if you want to take the advice. The problem with the info you posted, is that it is a mix of advice i.e. 'Should' and law i.e. 'Must'.

I am still trying to find the reference to the law about overnight stops in the 2020 act but have failed miserably. Can you see it?

Then you have the CRTwho have published their own advice (I assume these are not changes to their terms and conditions) and then we have someone who will call them to get an individuals take on what is happening.

The biggest issue is the definition of primary residence! The word primary residence is not well defined and is normally used for tax purposes. It doesn't really work for corona virus. You can change your primary residence if you wish. You can elect to go and live on a boat.......and there is nothing stopping you moving back.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Alan, you are usually very precise in what you post, but in this case it is not really answering the question.

My point was that there is a law...the coronavirus act 2020 and there is gov advice. You must obey the law. You can choose if you want to take the advice. The problem with the info you posted, is that it is a mix of advice i.e. 'Should' and law i.e. 'Must'.

I am still trying to find the reference to the law about overnight stops in the 2020 act but have failed miserably. Can you see it?

Then you have the CRTwho have published their own advice (I assume these are not changes to their terms and conditions) and then we have someone who will call them to get an individuals take on what is happening.

The biggest issue is the definition of primary residence! The word primary residence is not well defined and is normally used for tax purposes. It doesn't really work for corona virus. You can change your primary residence if you wish. You can elect to go and live on a boat.......and there is nothing stopping you moving back.

 

 

 

 

I have no more idea than (it appears) anyone else has.

The cut and paste is from the .Gov website and simply states 'your primary residence'

 

This looks like a reasonable explanation of a Primary Residence :

 

Primary Residence

A primary residence is the main home someone inhabits. Your primary property can be an apartment, a houseboat or another form of property that you live in most of the year.

Primary residences tend to qualify for the lowest mortgage rates. For your home to qualify as your primary property, here are some of the requirements:

• You must live there most of the year.
• It must be a convenient distance from your place of employment.
• You need documentation to prove your residence. You can use your voter registration, tax return, etc.

[john6767]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

Alan, you are usually very precise in what you post, but in this case it is not really answering the question.

My point was that there is a law...the coronavirus act 2020 and there is gov advice. You must obey the law. You can choose if you want to take the advice. The problem with the info you posted, is that it is a mix of advice i.e. 'Should' and law i.e. 'Must'.

I am still trying to find the reference to the law about overnight stops in the 2020 act but have failed miserably. Can you see it?

Then you have the CRTwho have published their own advice (I assume these are not changes to their terms and conditions) and then we have someone who will call them to get an individuals take on what is happening.

The biggest issue is the definition of primary residence! The word primary residence is not well defined and is normally used for tax purposes. It doesn't really work for corona virus. You can change your primary residence if you wish. You can elect to go and live on a boat.......and there is nothing stopping you moving back.

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer so I may go wrong here.  

 

All this has been done as "statutory instruments", not laws as such.  Not sure what the real difference is, but I believe this allowed them to be put in place fast without being debated in parliament.

 

Anyway the link to the relevant one for England, is here (shown at the verson in place as of 1 June)

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/2020-06-01

 

All the steps along the way also have statutory instruments and you can see the steps at the top of the page and select anyone,  This is what came in on 1 June, prior to that you were not allowed to leave the place where you are living without a reasonable excuse 

 

The key bits are, with the list a reasonable excuses none of which are relevant to  leisure boats, omitted for clarity.

 

Restrictions on movement

6.—

(1) No person may, without reasonable excuse, stay overnight at any place other than the place where they are living.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the circumstances in which a person (“P”) has a reasonable excuse include cases where—

[snip, list of reasonable excuses removed for clarity]

(3) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

(4) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

 

It is a simple as that

[GUMPY]

15 hours ago, Jerra said:

I must have missed those posts can you point me to somebody who has said they are enjoying lockdown?

Me for one.

No shopping to do, its all delivered,

which is a good thing.

Not having to meet and deal with people 

which is a good thing

Garden coming on well

which is a good thing.

Not driving up and down the country

which is a good thing

Only bad thing is I haven't been able to get the boat in for its repaint but can do that after lockdown is over.

I'm lucky to have retired and to have somewhere nice to live so for me lockdown can continue for as long as its needed.

We locked down in early March as it seemed a sensible thing to do.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Loddon

[doratheexplorer]

10 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The legal position is still, I think, that you cannot be away from home overnight.  You can tweak away at the definitions of "home" or "primary residence",  and possibly even "overnight", and personally I'm quite happy both to play semantics with badly written laws and, like everyone else, to pick and choose which ones I bother to obey.  But it's still important to recognise that the spirit of that particular law was to stop you wandering about the country, risking catching/spreading Covid and possibly stressing a bit of the NHS which wasn't prepared for you to land on it. 

As it's all likely to be dumped in the next few weeks, it's hardly worth getting het up about.

You can be away from home overnight if you stay with your bubble partner.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Me for one.

No shopping to do, its all delivered,

which is a good thing.

Not having to meet and deal with people 

which is a good thing

Garden coming on well

which is a good thing.

Not driving up and down the country

which is a good thing

Only bad thing is I haven't been able to get the boat in for its repaint but can do that after lockdown is over.

I'm lucky to have retired and to have somewhere nice to live so lockdown can continue for as long as its needed.

We locked down in early March as it seemed a sensible thing to do.

 

Whilst I basically agree I wouldn't say its a good thing.  better if we had done it sooner and so made it shorter.

 

What I do notice both on the forum and elsewhere is folk making lockdown less bearable by constantly harping on about what they want to do and how they might be able to bend the rules to enable them.

 

I have never fortunately been in prison but it seems like the difference between the guy who accepts he has to do his time and settles down and the one who paces his cell wishing he was in the pub, with the wife, watching football or whatever their "thing" happens to be.

 

Lockdown is with us and for a reason no point getting worked up over it, it is what it is as they say.   The main thing to me is to avoid at all costs as that will do even more damage to the economy.

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Me for one.

No shopping to do, its all delivered,

which is a good thing.

Not having to meet and deal with people 

which is a good thing

Garden coming on well

which is a good thing.

Not driving up and down the country

which is a good thing

Only bad thing is I haven't been able to get the boat in for its repaint but can do that after lockdown is over.

I'm lucky to have retired and to have somewhere nice to live so for me lockdown can continue for as long as its needed.

We locked down in early March as it seemed a sensible thing to do.

 

You know, I read your post and thought "I could have written that", except that I still send Mrs. Athy out to work - or, more precisely, to the study downstairs to work. We do visit the butcher's (next door) but that's generally the extent of our travels.

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You can be away from home overnight if you stay with your bubble partner.

Providing one of you is living alone.

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, Jerra said:

Providing one of you is living alone.

Well yes, that's a given.  Otherwise they wouldn't be a bubble partner.

[Jerra]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

Well yes, that's a given.  Otherwise they wouldn't be a bubble partner.

I have talked to people who think anybody can form a support bubble with any number providing they are from just 2 households.

[Naughty Cal]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

You know, I read your post and thought "I could have written that", except that I still send Mrs. Athy out to work - or, more precisely, to the study downstairs to work. We do visit the butcher's (next door) but that's generally the extent of our travels.

Us as well. 

 

We (well Liam I have still been working) have used lockdown and furlough to our advantage and used the time to get the house decorated top to bottom. We would never have had the time to get it all done otherwise. We could have happily continued it for a lot longer but now that Liam is back at work as well we are viewing it a little differently, although we are still making sure the house is well stocked for the next lock down. Had half a pig delivered this morning. There is a lot of meat on half a pig!

[GUMPY]

12 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Whilst I basically agree I wouldn't say its a good thing.  better if we had done it sooner and so made it shorter.

Lockdown was a month late, borders should have been shut at the same time.

Lots if stuff done after it was needed, if we had led rather than not bothered we could have been virus free by now.

Seemed obvious to me which is why I stopped going out in early March pity the politicians didn't see it the same way