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central heating pump


Deano1988
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 hi all, just in need of some recomendatios if possible

 

currently there is a boiler for central heating only (see pic) with a pump like (see pic).

 

the stat only links to the pump not the boiler. if anybody can confirm that changing the temp on the stat will change temp heating (how would this work?)

 

the pump no longer works anyway so im looking for  GOOD QUALITY pump that can pump the hot water around the system and change temp via stat (if even  possible)

 

the one that is already in says it only has a life span of approx 450 hours.

 

 

hope this makes sense and you can help

 

thanks dean

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

... if anybody can confirm that changing the temp on the stat will change temp heating (how would this work?)

I would imagine that pumping the water through the system will cool it, therefore causing the boiler to kick in.

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That in a non-room-sealed water heater designed for intermittent use (ie when a tap is turned on). It is absolutely NOT designed to run a central heating system and it’s dangerous to do so. Do you have any family on the boat? Presumably you don’t like them very much and will be glad when they die.

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19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

That in a non-room-sealed water heater designed for intermittent use (ie when a tap is turned on). It is absolutely NOT designed to run a central heating system and it’s dangerous to do so. Do you have any family on the boat? Presumably you don’t like them very much and will be glad when they die.

This this comment is a bit harsh. I'm quite new to this and trying to get a bit of help of people who know what they are talking about. 

 

If it's not right I will change it and make it right ( I didn't know it wasn't right)

 

So I WONT be happy if my family die  

10 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Have you had the boat long?  Are you sure you know which bits do what?

Think I have have got my head around everything in the boat now. 

 

This has defo been used for the central heating

 

before there is another exact same that does the hot water for the shower and sinks

 

Thanks dean

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It is difficult to understand how it could be used for central heating.  A Morco needs an unrestricted output to be able to deliver hot water from input cold. A central heating system recirculates hot/warm water.  A Morco would not like warm water being fed back in.  I'd love to know how it was done. Can you gives us an idea of the major components of the system and how they were connected together?  

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1 hour ago, Deano1988 said:

This this comment is a bit harsh. I'm quite new to this and trying to get a bit of help of people who know what they are talking about. 

 

If it's not right I will change it and make it right ( I didn't know it wasn't right)

 

So I WONT be happy if my family die  

 

Thanks dean

Harsh? Yes definitely. But then it is a serious matter.

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9 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

Hi all am taking your advice that the way this has been done is dangerous. what are my options for central heating then can any body reccomend a new boiler?

 

 

The more information you can give, the better the recommendation can be.

What usage will your boat have, occasional leisure, liveaboard etc ?

How old is your boat?

How big is your boat?

What other space heating have you got?

What level of expense do you want to go to, eg minimal, to money no object, etc

 

 

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Hi the boat is 57ft it will be only weekend use at first but would fit it out for live aboard just in case. I can't really see any other position than the position that it can go other than the boiler that is already in place. 

 

If possible it would be ideal if I could get rid of the other boiler also that does the hot water and combine central heating and hot water to a single boiler. That would fit in the same space the morco does. 

 

In regards to price. I dont want the cheapest that will break in 6 months but on the other hand I'm not a millionaire haha but some thing reliable for a reasonable price. 

 

Thanks

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20 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

Hi all am taking your advice that the way this has been done is dangerous. what are my options for central heating then can any body reccomend a new boiler?

 

 

 

I suspect the only practical gas option will be an Alde 3000 but that should not have any copper in the system. Otherwise the choice will be diesel or sold fuel and I suspect all will involve major installation  work and be costly.

While considering your options please take careful note of the electricity consumption. Electricity from batteries is very limited.

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1 hour ago, Deano1988 said:

Hi the boat is 57ft it will be only weekend use at first but would fit it out for live aboard just in case. I can't really see any other position than the position that it can go other than the boiler that is already in place. 

 

If possible it would be ideal if I could get rid of the other boiler also that does the hot water and combine central heating and hot water to a single boiler. That would fit in the same space the morco does. 

 

In regards to price. I dont want the cheapest that will break in 6 months but on the other hand I'm not a millionaire haha but some thing reliable for a reasonable price. 

 

Thanks

I think it’s always a good idea to see what most other people have, and bear in mind that is based on a long history of what actually works. Re-inventing the wheel without much practical experience usually doesn’t end well.

 

Most people have a solid fuel stove for their main space heating. Certainly the vast majority of live-aboards. Reliable, Cheap to run, uses no electricity. This is often supplemented by a central heating system comprising one of those evaporative heaters such as Mikuni / webasto / eberspacher. They are good for a short term heat boost on a chilly spring morning or evening when lighting the stove isn’t justified. They are not particularly reliable and use a fair bit of electricity, but clean and convenient.
Before they were popular, people used Alde gas boilers which were compact and reliable, used very little electricity, but it is expensive to heat your boat using small bottles of gas.
 

For hot water, most leisure boats have a Calorifier (hot water storage tank) that is heated by the engine - free heat when you are cruising and probably lasts until the next day’s cruise. Which is great for a leisure boat that is probably going to cruise most days, but no so good for a live aboard unless they have shore power to run an immersion heater. Off grid live aboards often have a gas instant water heater such as you have already.

 

so plenty of choice, but all those things take up some space. The diesel evaporative heaters are very small though, and can typically be installed in an engine bay.

 

You rarely see a Combi gas boiler in a boat, such as you might find in a house. Partly because they need a permanent mains electricity supply, partly because there is no product approved for installation in boats, and partly because heating you boat solely by bottled gas is pretty expensive.

Edited by nicknorman
  • Greenie 4
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I have never seen a combi boiler small enough in heat output suitable for a boat. They are all 240v AC mains.

Relying on propane cylinders of average size, 13kg, for heating, is hugely expensive. Even if you never move and use 47kg cylinders on the bank you will spend a fortune.

 

Bite the bullet and fit a solid fuel burner with a back boiler, best long term solution, thousands of boaters can't all be wrong.

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Hi all so I think im getting my head around this now. 

 

I already have a morso squirel multi fuel burner. (Stove)

 

So if I get rid of boiler that was used for central heating and get a backboiler for stove.

 

Is the picture the right theory. Would it work 

 

I will just carry on using the 1 boiler for hot water

 

Thanks

 

 

15913718402074590753761624696946.jpg

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Looks fine but you need an expansion tank at the highest point so that you can fill it and vent the air out. Forget the stat with solid fuel.

If you get the pipework to rise the correct way from the boiler and fall to the radiators you can get it to work on gravity, saves a pump and all the electric consumption. You also have to consider what happens if the pump gives up or the electrics fail with a big fire burning,

Some will say use a sealed system with an expansion level but it not so easy and I don't like it with solid fuel as its impossible to shut it down fast in emergency.

You have to have somewhere for the heat to go at all times, usually the calorifier is included in the circuit to give a fail safe heat dump.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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1 hour ago, Deano1988 said:

Hi all so I think im getting my head around this now. 

 

I already have a morso squirel multi fuel burner. (Stove)

 

So if I get rid of boiler that was used for central heating and get a backboiler for stove.

 

Is the picture the right theory. Would it work 

 

I will just carry on using the 1 boiler for hot water

 

Thanks

 

 

15913718402074590753761624696946.jpg

In an ideal world you would re-plumb the radiators and stove for gravity circulation so it does not need a pump. If you have a wet stove plus pump if the pump fails the whole system is likely to boil.

 

I think the pump in your diagram is in the wrong place. Its flow will short circuit through the radiator closest to it.

 

You can't/should not use a room stat with a stove. Any stat needs to be a pipe stat that will run the pump once the outlet from the stove reaches a certain temperature. A room stat is likely to cause the system to boil.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think the pump in your diagram is in the wrong place. Its flow will short circuit through the radiator closest to it.

Pump should be next to the bottom connection on the stove, so it pumps the cool(er) water back into the boiler.

Have a search around the forum for similar past threads. There are some diagrams showing how to plumb gravity and pumped back boiler systems.

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3 hours ago, Deano1988 said:

So if I get rid of boiler that was used for central heating .........

Nooooo! Whatever you do, dont get rid of your Gas water heater, (is it a Morco61b?). It will give you instant hot water when your calorifier is cold, and I have lost count of the number of boaters who talk about fitting one, rather than removing one.

 

If you get rid of it, you will eventually wish you hadnt, and you almost cetainly wont be able to find/fit a direct replacement. Room sealed are generally required these days, and there are a number of reasons why they can be difficult to fit.

Edited by Richard10002
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Struggling to find anything that suits my system I require. 

 

Would this work? 

 

I'm going to keep the morco 61b for hot water in shower and sinks. (There is 2 on the boat) So this is only for the radiators

 

I dont know how to get around the pump I dont think it is possible to gravity fed where everything is. 

 

Thanks for all your help it is very appreciated. I wouldn't have a clue with out this forum. 

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As has been mentioned, you can’t stop the pump when the fire is burning, otherwise there is a significant risk of the water in the back boiler boiling. When that happens, the water in the boiler turns to steam and thus expands massively. It pushes out any water in the pipes before venting itself and most of the very hot water, out of the header tank in a forceful way. You certainly wouldn’t want to be near that when it happens, nor have to clear it up afterwards!
 

Also I would check the output of any back boiler vs the size of radiators you want it to feed. Not sure which Squirrel you have but I think the back boilers for them are only a couple of kw, won’t be enough to run a whole lot of radiator area.

 

You are on the right lines here, but the detail is important!

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Morso Squirrel quoted as 5kw. generally enough for a 58ft boat.

 

If you post a layout of your boat and where the burner would go, preferably fairly centrally in the saloon on the same side as the calorifier, we can suggest how to achieve a gravity circulation system.

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On 05/06/2020 at 21:53, Tracy D'arth said:

Morso Squirrel quoted as 5kw. generally enough for a 58ft boat.

 

If you post a layout of your boat and where the burner would go, preferably fairly centrally in the saloon on the same side as the calorifier, we can suggest how to achieve a gravity circulation system.

 

Just now, Deano1988 said:

 

Hi thanks for the help

 

the rads and fire are already in place all on 1 side of the boat. 

 

Any ideas how I would achieve the gravity fed system. 

 

Thanks dean

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