Narrow boat sailaway

[JamesFrance]

I imagine the voting at Crick is the same as when our last narrowboat was shown at the final Braunston show in 1999.   Ours was next to one from Kingsground, whose people seemed to spend most of their time persuading children to vote their boat as favourite.   I seem to remember it worked too.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Most seasoned boaters I know dont bother going to Crick any more and at a guess most of the people who look round dont have a clue what is below the water line

I get free tickets so go most years, I have a friend who lives in the village so visit him as well.  The other year I won tickets for the camping site so had a weekend there in the camper. A day is enough for me nowadays though and sometimes it's to much! As for peoples expertise who knows 

[LadyG]

17 hours ago, peterboat said:

Tyler Wilson for me ask yourself who's shells win Crick Crick boat show every year and it ain't Colecraft

I've got a Tyler Wilson and it's a very well built hull, they are very experienced [generations].

I would get the builder to do as much as he offersas  the work involved in fitting out is ................ well twice as much work as you thought, and three times the price or vice versa if you decide to cut corners.

There are quite a few Rules and Regulations as  well, and very soon someone will ask you to consider buying second hand if you are in any doubt as to design/layout/skillsets. This is a few grades above B&Q

See Colin Jaques on youtube it can be quite a time consuming process. Colin has a workshop [shed], tools, skills 

Edited June 5, 2020 by LadyG

[dmr]

4 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Most seasoned boaters I know dont bother going to Crick any more and at a guess most of the people who look round dont have a clue what is below the water line

I believe Crick has become a family day out though some people there do aspire to buy a boat one day. Sadly events for boaters are few and far between, and declining. Its very sad that the Saul event failed, they used to have some good proper music too.

 

............Dave

[PD1964]

21 hours ago, John Gibson said:

Hi guys. 
I am new in the narrowboat world.

I would like to buy a mid trad sailaway and to fit out myself.

Could you please recommend a good narrowboat shell builder?

 

 

You might do done this as you say your only getting the shell so it’s not a sail away, but do your research when it comes to you being the builder and research the RCD and RYA requirements, the rules and regs changed a few years ago, it’s got a bit more complicated with self builds and the legal responsibilities, especially if you sell it within 5 years.

Edited June 5, 2020 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You might do done this as you say your only getting the shell so it’s not a sail away, but do your research when it comes to you being the builder and research the RCD and RYA requirements, the rules and regs changed a few years ago, it’s got a bit more complicated with self builds and the legal responsibilities, especially if you sell it within 5 years.

 

Big changes came into effect in 2017,

 

The main area which has seen the changes as far as a self-build is concerned is :

 

The new Directive (2013/53/EU) became mandatory on the 18th January 2017, following a period of transition from the old Recreational Craft Directive (94/25/EC).

The new Recreational Craft & Personal Watercraft Directive makes the position on ‘part completed’ a lot clearer and will impact both canal boat builders and anyone purchasing either a sailaway or hull only craft.

As proud members of British Marine Federation, The Fit Out Pontoon approached BMF to clarify the situation regarding the changes of the Directive. BMF kindly supplied a copy of a letter from Trading Standards which clarifies their position in regard to part-completed craft, the following is an extract from that letter:

“Where a watercraft is partly completed if it is not capable of being used for sport and leisure purposes (put into service). The manufacturer intends there to be further construction work to make it capable of being used. The watercraft should be accompanied by a declaration by the manufacturer or importer with the information required in Annex III. So a partly completed craft can be put on the market but cannot be put into service. Clause 2 is clear such watercraft may be placed on the market but only complete watercraft (Clause 1) can be placed on the market and/or put into service. It would be an offence to put into service (use) a part completed watercraft.

If a watercraft is intended to be used, ie if it can be put into service, it is as “complete” as the manufacturer intends it to be. At that stage, the craft must meet all the applicable essential health and safety requirements of the Directive and have a Declaration of Conformity with the information required in Annex IV, technical documentation with the documents listed in Annex IX and CE marking. This applies to all economic operators and private persons, subject to some exemptions.”

The new Directive has also clarified the definition of Major Craft Conversion, which is now also included in the new Directive. Major Craft Conversion means ” … a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive”.

This now means that any CE marked vessel that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion, must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed on the market or put in to service. The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back in service after the work has been carried out

CD Update January 2017… Conclusion

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

[Martin Nicholas]

The quality of the shell has never been a factor for prizes at Crick Show.

 

Fitters choose the cheapest shell they can find, preferably from a volume builder who offers standard items (58 foot) ex-stock. Even better if they offer trade terms. In this way the fitter maximises the profit for their pocket.  All cheap shells are much of a muchness - flat plates for doors, weld on hinges, little or no internal structure, etc. A kit boat might offer the best value and should be investigated.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Martin Nicholas said:

The quality of the shell has never been a factor for prizes at Crick Show.

 

Fitters choose the cheapest shell they can find, preferably from a volume builder who offers standard items (58 foot) ex-stock. Even better if they offer trade terms. In this way the fitter maximises the profit for their pocket.  All cheap shells are much of a muchness - flat plates for doors, weld on hinges, little or no internal structure, etc. A kit boat might offer the best value and should be investigated.

So why no Liverpool or other cheap shell's? Tyler Wilson hardly fails into the cheap shell category 

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Martin Nicholas said:

The quality of the shell has never been a factor for prizes at Crick Show.

 

Fitters choose the cheapest shell they can find, preferably from a volume builder who offers standard items (58 foot) ex-stock. Even better if they offer trade terms. In this way the fitter maximises the profit for their pocket.  All cheap shells are much of a muchness - flat plates for doors, weld on hinges, little or no internal structure, etc. A kit boat might offer the best value and should be investigated.

 

Completely ignores the fact that some shells have features such as groundcoff and filled welds, flatter panels (less distortion), the upward sweep of the roof towards the back of the boat, scalloped edges to cants and handrails, scalloped and/or handrails, bow shape etc, which add to the visual appearance of certain shells.

 

The aesthetics of the shell is very important to most knowledgeable buyers.

 

Then there is the length of front and rear swims which affect how the boat handles, both forwards and in reverse. 

 

Having extensive experience of a cheap (Pat Buckle shell), middle (Graham Reeves shell) and slighltly further up market (Alexander shell) there is a world of difference in the handling of each, almost directly proportional to the coat of the shell.

Edited June 6, 2020 by cuthound
To add the last two paragraphs

[Rob-M]

23 hours ago, dmr said:

I believe Crick has become a family day out though some people there do aspire to buy a boat one day. Sadly events for boaters are few and far between, and declining. Its very sad that the Saul event failed, they used to have some good proper music too.

 

............Dave

Saul festival was due to be held again this year.

[dmr]

45 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Saul festival was due to be held again this year.

Its fated to fail . I think we went twice but in the van before we got the boat. We had also booked for the flood year, in fact the brass plaque is in front of me right now. I remember there were a lot of moored boats, quite a few stalls selling boaty stuff (though not enough) and proper bands  (Oyster Band and Show of Hands?) plus various spontaneous performances. The only bad thing was been forced to sit down for the Oyster Band for some bizarre safety reason. Everything is tribute bands and has-beens these days.  Middlewich is probably the biggest "festival" event but it has no boaty stalls and the music is mostly uninspiring. If Saul does get going again in a good format then we will make a serious effort to support it.

 

.....................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its fated to fail . I think we went twice but in the van before we got the boat. We had also booked for the flood year, in fact the brass plaque is in front of me right now. I remember there were a lot of moored boats, quite a few stalls selling boaty stuff (though not enough) and proper bands  (Oyster Band and Show of Hands?) plus various spontaneous performances. The only bad thing was been forced to sit down for the Oyster Band for some bizarre safety reason. Everything is tribute bands and has-beens these days.  Middlewich is probably the biggest "festival" event but it has no boaty stalls and the music is mostly uninspiring. If Saul does get going again in a good format then we will make a serious effort to support it.

 

.....................Dave

They really had the moorings organised, knowing whe was going where and enough room for them when they got there. One of the years we were there a boat caught fire and the high speed rib managed to sink a boat with their wash

Edited June 6, 2020 by ditchcrawler

[Richard T]

Another name for shells is X-R&D . Beacon Boats used them for their shells when they were fitting out.

 

[JamesFrance]

Aintree will build to any stage and their steelwork is very well finished

 

http://www.aintreeboats.co.uk/prices/

[Up-Side-Down]

Can recommend from first hand experience: http://www.nickthorpeboatbuilding.com

 

You'll find the website very helpful for calculating prices and Nick even more so. He's from the Mick Heywood lineage (training-wise) so there are strong links with Jonathan Wilson and Tim Tyler.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Can recommend from first hand experience: http://www.nickthorpeboatbuilding.com

 

You'll find the website very helpful for calculating prices and Nick even more so. He's from the Mick Heywood lineage (training-wise) so there are strong links with Jonathan Wilson and Tim Tyler.

Which is no bad thing Johny worked with his uncle making boats so sure the magic has rubbed of on Nick 

[Martin Nicholas]

23 hours ago, peterboat said:

So why no Liverpool or other cheap shell's? Tyler Wilson hardly fails into the cheap shell category 

 

Quote

 

LIVERPOOL BOAT CO. LIMITED

Company number 03072843

 

Company status: Dissolved

Dissolved on: 11 December 2018

Incorporated on: 27 June 1995

Last accounts made up to 30 April 2012

 

They won the Lionel Monk Trophy in 2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190904134255/http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/

 

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Martin Nicholas said:

 

They won the Lionel Monk Trophy in 2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190904134255/http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/

 

And then went bust - winning didn't do them any favours.

 

It was the big change from car wheels with hub-caps to alloys that did it for them. 

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And then went bust - winning didn't do them any favours.

 

It was the big change from car wheels with hub-caps to alloys that did it for them. 

I think it was more the warranty work! Chris a neighbour had a widebeam from liverpool boats, it had to have some roof seams rewelded to sort out leaks not uncommon I have heard.  It's something that gets around, Johny pulled a narrowboat out once made by them and the welding was poorly done, maybe being very busy has its production problems 

[Richard10002]

58 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think it was more the warranty work! Chris a neighbour had a widebeam from liverpool boats, it had to have some roof seams rewelded to sort out leaks not uncommon I have heard.  It's something that gets around, Johny pulled a narrowboat out once made by them and the welding was poorly done, maybe being very busy has its production problems 

There is a lot to be said for buying a second hand boat, where all of this has been sorted, it's still floating, not leaking, and it's kitted out for cruising. If you really want new, many boats up to about 5 years old or so will feel like new, (some wont!!).

 

ETA: for the OP, there will be some second hand "sailaways" that were bought with the intention of kitting out, then, for a variety of reasons, it doesn't happen.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Richard10002

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

There is a lot to be said for buying a second hand boat, where all of this has been sorted, it's still floating, not leaking, and it's kitted out for cruising. If you really want new, many boats up to about 5 years old or so will feel like new, (some wont!!).

 

ETA: for the OP, there will be some second hand "sailaways" that were bought with the intention of kitting out, then, for a variety of reasons, it doesn't happen.

Yup my first boat was a well used but in good condition ex share boat, very much a what you see is what you got boat. My second was a nearly new Johnathan Wilson widebeam excellent value and well fitted out by little brown mouse, again good value, as you say they represent excellent value for money and can be little used

[dmr]

The OP really needs to say what sort of shell he wants then maybe a suitable shell builder could be suggested. I think he said cheap ?.

 

The Lymm shells are pretty basic but functional.

Colecraft are better and do have a more pleasing shape, but more expensive. Colecraft produce some very tidy welding.

 

Its probably only worth going to Tyler or XR&D etc etc if he wants a bit more styling or a more traditional style shell with fancy bits and a shapely front etc, though Colecraft will also do fancy trad shells etc if requested (and paid for).

 

Then there are the top "name" builders, though getting a bit thin on the ground, and I don't think he is in this market.

 

.................Dave

[system 4-50]

My Colecraft Sailaway came with a basic 2-pack paint job as standard which saved much hassle in the early days and is still in good order 10 years later.  I have painted over it with 1-pack which is not nearly so durable, (obviously partly because of my limited painting abilities).   I am reminded of how lucky I was to get this, being ignorant at the time of how good it was, every time I pass a rusty sailaway with nothing more than grey primer on it.