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What Do I Need To Make A Boat With A Classic Engine Legal?


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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You may think it is clear, but in answer to the OPs question regarding making a new boat legal and using a Russel Newbery engine, your reply was incorrect, or at least misleading.

 

 

No, it is neither. It is constructive and helpful - surely a good way to answer a question.

Edited by Athy
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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

It needs to comply with the Recreational Craft Directive, if you wish to be legally able to sell it within 5 years of constructing it.  Alan de E will be along with all the details soon.

The problems with a new RN are:

They are vapourware.  No-one I know claims any have been made for several  years.  Even the RN Register members admit that there is not a full engine set of parts on the shelf and that some of the key patterns are unaccounted for.

Some of the bought in parts- fuel pump, injectors, are no longer in production.

The engine does not have the necessary emissions certification, and afaik no one is planning to get it.

The engine does not have the necessary noise certification, and afaik no one is planning to get it.

 

 Easier to buy a good boat with a decent engine and plan a complete refit, bit even then you will be in RCD territory.

 

N

 

Unless things have changed since I was involved with this stuff, there is a typical EEC "loophole" in the noise measurement certification in that you can sort of do it yourself. Sadly its probably not the same for exhaust emissions otherwise we could have lots of nice old engines in new boats.

 

.............Dave

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The exemption for building a boat without complying with the RCD is specifically "building a boat for your own use".

 

Since 2017 a manufacturer supplying a part built boat (anything from a hull only and 'upwards') is that it must now be built in FULL compliance with the RCD and certified as a complete boat, the old Annexe IIIa is no longer allowed.

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

  • A builders plate – makers details and technical information
  • A CE mark
  • A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
  • An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
  • A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

You should now get a Certificate of Compliance for the supply of a boat at ANY stage of construction.

 

image.png.3fde8fed62a83f5d6e1cd2e6ead7fd50.png

 

 

The next problem the OP may find is trying to convince a boat builder to break the law, certify he is supplying in compliance and supply him a hull / sailaway having installed a non-compliant engine.

The OP could buy a 'hull' and do all of the fitting out work, installing the engine etc himself and not build in compliance, but knowing that the boat could not be legally sold for 5 years irrespective of the reason for the sale.

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Er, we have left the EU so nuts to their "directives"  Ask the French and they're still in.

 

Surprised Mr.Smelly hasn't had a pop [or should that be a pop-pop] at traditional engines?

Edited by rustynewbery
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So the OP wants to fit out a boat with a Russell Newbry  engine. What does he mean by fit out? Self fit out or professionally fitted out ? Were he to do so and accept that it would not be RCD compliant could he legally use it? Several people have said that if the boat was not RCD compliant he couldn't sell it for 5 years. When would the 5 year clock start ticking?  If from the date of purchase of the hull or what.

I fitted out Vital Spark from a bare shell back in 1996 just as the RCD raised it's head. I decided not to go down the RCD road. Even if I had wanted to sell it by the time it was sellable? it was at least 5 years old and RCD was no longer an issue. I know that things have moved on since 1996 but maybe people are raising problems that don't really exist. Equally I may be talking rubbish.

Back to tidying out my shed/workshop? 

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10 minutes ago, Slim said:

When would the 5 year clock start ticking?  If from the date of purchase of the hull or what.

The RCD states "from when the boat is 1st put onto the market"

 

Which is explained as its 1st use / put onto the water / offered for sale - so claiming it took 5 years to build it doesn't give you exemption.

 

11 minutes ago, rustynewbery said:

Er, we have left the EU so nuts to their "directives"  Ask the French and they're still in

Er - we have agreed (certainly in the short term) to maintain all of the EU laws/directives that we have already implemented in the UK

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Slim said:

When would the 5 year clock start ticking?  If from the date of purchase of the hull or what.

 

Date commissioned, so when the boat goes in the water, finished.  And no, you can't "build it for yourself" on dry land and "place it on the market" without launching it!

 

5 minutes ago, Slim said:

I know that things have moved on since 1996

 

The 2016 revisions mean that if you make a "Major Craft Conversion" to a boat with an RCD (pretty much any boat built since 1998) you need to have a "Post Construction Assessment" by a proper surveyor at the cost of a few grand, and get a new certificate that it still complies.  The person legally responsible for this is the person placing it on the market or putting it back into service - even for secondhand boats.

 

1 minute ago, Slim said:

Equally I may be talking rubbish.

I didn't like to say so, but now you've mentioned it ...

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD states "from when the boat is 1st put onto the market"

 

Which is explained as its 1st use / put onto the water / offered for sale - so claiming it took 5 years to build it doesn't give you exemption.

 

Er - we have agreed (certainly in the short term) to maintain all of the EU laws/directives that we have already implemented in the UK

So in other words, your saying I can fit the boat out myself, use it on the canal... but not be able to sell it until 5 years after it was first used/put onto the water?

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26 minutes ago, Slim said:

So the OP wants to fit out a boat with a Russell Newbry  engine. What does he mean by fit out? Self fit out or professionally fitted out ? Were he to do so and accept that it would not be RCD compliant could he legally use it? Several people have said that if the boat was not RCD compliant he couldn't sell it for 5 years. When would the 5 year clock start ticking?  If from the date of purchase of the hull or what.

I fitted out Vital Spark from a bare shell back in 1996 just as the RCD raised it's head. I decided not to go down the RCD road. Even if I had wanted to sell it by the time it was sellable? it was at least 5 years old and RCD was no longer an issue. I know that things have moved on since 1996 but maybe people are raising problems that don't really exist. Equally I may be talking rubbish.

Back to tidying out my shed/workshop? 

I'm planning on fitting it out myself

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39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The OP could buy a 'hull' and do all of the fitting out work, installing the engine etc himself and not build in compliance, but knowing that the boat could not be legally sold for 5 years irrespective of the reason for the sale.

That is what I did over 20 years ago, just a plain steel hull. Fitted everything else myself including engine and Bowthruster

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD states "from when the boat is 1st put onto the market"

 

Which is explained as its 1st use / put onto the water / offered for sale - so claiming it took 5 years to build it doesn't give you exemption.

 

Er - we have agreed (certainly in the short term) to maintain all of the EU laws/directives that we have already implemented in the UK

So, '1st use/put into the water/offered for sale' Does it give any indication what is meant by "put into the water"? Example, buy a hull with all the appropriate documentation, put it into the water immediately , spend say 2 years getting it to a usable stage. When does the 5 years start? the day you put it in the water (as a bare hull) or the day it was first used. ? 

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13 minutes ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

So in other words, your saying I can fit the boat out myself, use it on the canal... but not be able to sell it until 5 years after it was first used/put onto the water?

YES.

 

But presumably you will not be manufacturing the Hull - you will need to buy the hull from a boat builder without the (non compliant) engine fitted (but give him details of the required engine location, bearers and mounting point dimensions. The builder will provide you with a compliance certificate up to the level of what he has built.

After that you become the legal 'boat builder' & it is up to you if you build in compliance (or not).

You may employ 'specialist services' during the build (ie Gas safe registered installer etc etc) But I have no idea 'how much' outside labour would negate it being a 'self-build'. I'd suggest if going down that route you take legal advice.

 

All of this can be avoided if the new Russel Newbery has been CE certified as being in compliance. It would seem to be a commercial error if they intend to go 'into production' without the necessary approvals.

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Some of you lot must spend your whole life reading rules and regulations? Do you ever find time to go boating?

 

And how many of you have actually fully read and comprehended an EEC directive?, its not something that is easily done.

 

I've just changed the bolts securing the portholes from brass to stainless steel, I believe portholes are part of the RCD, do I need to get a surveyor in ? ?

 

....................Dave

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Just now, Slim said:

So, '1st use/put into the water/offered for sale' Does it give any indication what is meant by "put into the water"? Example, buy a hull with all the appropriate documentation, put it into the water immediately , spend say 2 years getting it to a usable stage. When does the 5 years start? the day you put it in the water (as a bare hull) or the day it was first used. ? 

 

I am not in a position to give you a legally binding definition, but would suggest that it will only be when the boat is 'substantially complete' and 'in use' (we all know a self build is never finished).

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12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is what I did over 20 years ago, just a plain steel hull. Fitted everything else myself including engine and Bowthruster

Me too (except the bowthruster) Considered a bit Girley------a big mistake?

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19 minutes ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

So in other words, your saying I can fit the boat out myself, use it on the canal... but not be able to sell it until 5 years after it was first used/put onto the water?

 

Yes, but only if you build the boat yourself.

 

You can no longer buy a brand new shell from somebody else and fit an RN engine, because under the new rules they need to provide it with a full RCD.  You then have a boat that is in scope for the RCD, and every major change you make - specifically including the engine - requires you to get a PCA done by an approved surveyor.

 

5 years ago you could have done this legally with an Annexe III declaration and an RN engine installed in the boat, but not anymore, not in any boat that has an RCD / CE mark.  

 

We know it's not what you want to hear, but you have missed the boat (literally!) on your plan.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

I'm planning on fitting it out myself

If you think you're going to complete the fit out in less than 5 years (I know you didn't say that?)

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

We used to until late March (sob!)

 

We hope to again soon!

We use the washing machine at least every other day, and now have lots of showers, including the dog. Yippee, the water tank is almost empty again, time to go boating up to the water tap (its only 100 yards but its boating)

 

..............Dave

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Just now, dmr said:

We use the washing machine at least every other day, and now have lots of showers, including the dog. Yippee, the water tank is almost empty again, time to go boating up to the water tap (its only 100 yards but its boating)

 

There's a great water point just below lock 19 ...

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