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What Do I Need To Make A Boat With A Classic Engine Legal?


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1 minute ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

I'm planning for 6 -7 years, I'm a joiner by trade (wooden window maker/cabinet maker). which should make the very precise work a bit easier

In which case, forget any plans to use a 'square' or a spirit-level. 

 

So, if all goes to plan, &, if the need arises you can sell it 12 years after buying the hull.

 

Good luck with which ever way you decide to go.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

There's a great water point just below lock 19 ...

Thats probably one of the fastest water taps on the canal system, but just a few locks down in Hebden is possibly the slowest water tap on the system.  If anybody turns a tap on in the picture house it stops!

 

..................Dave

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Hebden is possibly the slowest water tap on the system.  If anybody turns a tap on in the picture house it stops!

That still makes it faster than Dobson Locks on the L&L.  I'm pretty sure that one takes water out of your tank rather than puts it in!

 

 

 

 

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Back on topic.

It seems a shame to possibly kill what cold be an exciting project for lack of an engine..

soooo - how about considering a Gardner, they make an appropriate sound and parts are available plus a user group?

Mebe a 3-pot model might give an appropriate sound - although the correct design of exhaust would help. Just because an engine is 'used' doesn't mean that it is necassarily unreliable and there are folk who rebuild them.

 

The thought of an engine where spares are made in ones or twos and also where total sales are small anyway fills me with horror.

 

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15 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Back on topic.

It seems a shame to possibly kill what cold be an exciting project for lack of an engine..

soooo - how about considering a Gardner, they make an appropriate sound and parts are available plus a user group?

Mebe a 3-pot model might give an appropriate sound - although the correct design of exhaust would help. Just because an engine is 'used' doesn't mean that it is necassarily unreliable and there are folk who rebuild them.

 

The thought of an engine where spares are made in ones or twos and also where total sales are small anyway fills me with horror.

 

I've thought about the gardner, but I still prefer the sound of a RN DM2, and like @Alan de Enfield said, If i fitted out the boat, and fitted the engine myself, I would still be able to use it on the cut, but I wouldn't be able to sell it until 5 years after it completion (like i'd want to anyway - the boat would be to nice).

Edited by FutureNarrowboater2026
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10 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

how about considering a Gardner,

Lurvely.

 

Lovely Gardner 6LX for sale, with option of fitted Twin Disc 509 gearbox.

All less than 2000 hours from new. Comes complete with instrument panel, original Gardner oil cooler and brass fresh water pump.

This is a proper marine engine, with extended crankshaft, not a converted automotive engine.

Running really well.

 

Lovely Gardner 6LX - picture 1

 

Now, if the OP were to build a fishing boat, or a 'commercial' narrowboat (selling stuff, carrying freight etc) he could use any engine he wished (including this one)

 

 

Vintage kelvin diesel - picture 1

 

 

Vintage four cylinder kelvin Diesel engine, in good working order. It’s just been removed from the boat in the photo. Due to the fact that I’m going to take passengers I’ve been advised by the surveyor that i should fit a new engine.

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Lurvely.

 

Lovely Gardner 6LX for sale, with option of fitted Twin Disc 509 gearbox.

All less than 2000 hours from new. Comes complete with instrument panel, original Gardner oil cooler and brass fresh water pump.

This is a proper marine engine, with extended crankshaft, not a converted automotive engine.

Running really well.

 

Lovely Gardner 6LX - picture 1

 

Now, if the OP were to build a fishing boat, or a 'commercial' narrowboat (selling stuff, carrying freight etc) he could use any engine he wished (including this one)

 

 

Vintage kelvin diesel - picture 1

 

 

Vintage four cylinder kelvin Diesel engine, in good working order. It’s just been removed from the boat in the photo. Due to the fact that I’m going to take passengers I’ve been advised by the surveyor that i should fit a new engine.

I like the look of the kelvin, but I'm not really a gardner fan

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9 minutes ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

I like the look of the kelvin, but I'm not really a gardner fan

In all seriousness - if you were to build a 'working boat' then the RCD does not apply (It is only the RECREATIONAL Craft Directive)

 

Again If you decide to investigate that option further, you should take professional advice as to what would be accepted as a 'non-recreational boat'.

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1 hour ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

I'm planning for 6 -7 years, I'm a joiner by trade (wooden window maker/cabinet maker). which should make the very precise work a bit easier

Dont be too precise or you wont get the doors open when it turns hot, boats move a lot

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2 hours ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

I like the look of the kelvin, but I'm not really a gardner fan

That is a Kelvin Model P4.  Not seen by many as their greatest engine for canal use. Quite successful in the fishing market though.

 

Now the Kelvin Diesel Model J, the Model K and the Model L are different animals altogether.  Sound great, are prettier than the Model P, much more interesting than a Gardner or a  Lister  and more likely than the promise of a new RN, sometime.  Maybe.

N

Edited by BEngo
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58 minutes ago, BEngo said:

That is a Kelvin Model P4.  Not seen by many as their greatest engine for canal use. Quite successful in the fishing market though.

 

Now the Kelvin Diesel Model J, the Model K and the Model L are different animals altogether.  Sound great, are prettier than the Model P, much more interesting than a Gardner or a  Lister  and more likely than the promise of a new RN, sometime.  Maybe.

N

What do you mean when you say more likely than the promise of a new RN sometime. Maybe ?

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10 hours ago, GBBS said:

What do you mean when you say more likely than the promise of a new RN sometime. Maybe ?

I think he's referring to any earlier post which suggests that RN, though an extant company, hasn't actually built a new engine for some years.

This being CWDF, of course there's a slightly later post asserting "Oh yes they have".

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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think he's referring to any earlier post which suggests that RN, though an extant company, hasn't actually built a new engine for some years.

That earlier post was also from him and has been refuted, as you state. 

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13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Dont be too precise or you wont get the doors open when it turns hot, boats move a lot

Or when part of one side grounds and the boat twists. Then there is the problem for land based joiners getting the fitout true to the boat. Spirit levels and to a degree squares are not ideal tools for that.

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For what its worth my advice would be to do whatever you like, build it to the boat safety scheme and not tell anybody. Can't see any local authority having the resources to bother with what engine is in a boat and don't take it across the channel if its over 20 metres as you may just fall foul of other regulations.

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11 minutes ago, Bee said:

For what its worth my advice would be to do whatever you like, build it to the boat safety scheme and not tell anybody. Can't see any local authority having the resources to bother with what engine is in a boat and don't take it across the channel if its over 20 metres as you may just fall foul of other regulations.

You've probably expressed what some of us were wondering - who polices the engine regulations? Perhaps the supplier, or the installing boatbuilder, is supposed to make a declaration - but to whom?

 

Knock on the boat's door at 5 a.m: "We are the Kelvin police. Open your side doors!"

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7 minutes ago, Athy said:

You've probably expressed what some of us were wondering - who polices the engine regulations? Perhaps the supplier, or the installing boatbuilder, is supposed to make a declaration - but to whom?

 

Knock on the boat's door at 5 a.m: "We are the Kelvin police. Open your side doors!"

Go shout it on the mountains,

Oer the hills and far away,

That --

 

I've got a modified National  engine .......

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15 minutes ago, Athy said:

You've probably expressed what some of us were wondering - who polices the engine regulations? Perhaps the supplier, or the installing boatbuilder, is supposed to make a declaration - but to whom?

 

Knock on the boat's door at 5 a.m: "We are the Kelvin police. Open your side doors!"

"Real boats" compliance is checked by an RCD approved surveyor all the way thru production (Like a building inspector has to check your house at various stages, (foundations, 1st windows, 2nd floor windows etc etc )and then finally that everything is signed off as being compliant.

The NB industry has an 'derogation' allowing them to self certify that they have built a compliant vessel, but this is a legally binding document and should it be found to be not in compliance then prosecutions takes place. The claims for non-compliance often come from customers and I have linked (many times) the case of the NB builder :

 

Hughes feels he has been treated harshly, having been convicted for non-compliance with essential safety items.

These include no means of reboarding, through hull fittings with no shut-off valves, use of glass not of safety glass specification and installation of electrical and gas system and appliances that did not minimise the risk of fire or risk of explosion respectively.

"I was guilty of two mistakes, " says Hughes.

"Safety glass wasn't used - which I normally do use - and the other was I didn't screw down the stove. I missed out two screws."

Apart from these two admissions, Hughes feels Flintshire Trading Standards were unduly harsh on him.

One of the charges was for not providing any means of re-boarding. This, says Hughes is just not true. He buys shells that have steps welded to the stern for re-boarding.

But his documentation said he would supply a rope ladder. And he didn't. **

Hughes gave the task of putting the documentation together to a surveyor, who updated an existing set of documents, which mentioned the supply of a rope ladder for re-boarding.

The fire extinguishers were also in the wrong place. "I've been a fireman for 12 years, " says Hughes, "so I knew where to put them. What they were saying about the fire extinguishers was just plain stupid."

 

** An example of trying to use another boats' documentation back-firing.

 

A further 'derogation'  is that you can 'home-build' for personal use but are not allowed to sell it for 5 years, giving the time to 'turn-turtle' due to instability, catch fire due to a fuel leak, explode due to a gas leak etc etc.

It is presumed that if it hasn't killed its builder within 5 years then it is probably safe enough for someone to buy it.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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20 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

 

Knock on the boat's door at 5 a.m: "We are the Kelvin police. Open your side doors!"

If I open the side door on this Kelvin, the "police" can see the Lloyds approval stamp  for open sea service on the crankshaft, so I'll be in the clear?. Possibly interesting fact: the crankshaft was made by Vickers (not vicars) in 1948.

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29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"Real boats" compliance is checked by an RCD approved surveyor all the way thru production (Like a building inspector has to check your house at various stages, (foundations, 1st windows, 2nd floor windows etc etc )and then finally that everything is signed off as being compliant.

The NB industry has an 'derogation' allowing them to self certify that they have built a compliant vessel, but this is a legally binding document and should it be found to be not in compliance then prosecutions takes place. The claims for non-compliance often come from customers and I have linked (many times) the case of the NB builder :

 

Hughes feels he has been treated harshly, having been convicted for non-compliance with essential safety items.

These include no means of reboarding, through hull fittings with no shut-off valves, use of glass not of safety glass specification and installation of electrical and gas system and appliances that did not minimise the risk of fire or risk of explosion respectively.

"I was guilty of two mistakes, " says Hughes.

"Safety glass wasn't used - which I normally do use - and the other was I didn't screw down the stove. I missed out two screws."

Apart from these two admissions, Hughes feels Flintshire Trading Standards were unduly harsh on him.

One of the charges was for not providing any means of re-boarding. This, says Hughes is just not true. He buys shells that have steps welded to the stern for re-boarding.

But his documentation said he would supply a rope ladder. And he didn't. **

Hughes gave the task of putting the documentation together to a surveyor, who updated an existing set of documents, which mentioned the supply of a rope ladder for re-boarding.

The fire extinguishers were also in the wrong place. "I've been a fireman for 12 years, " says Hughes, "so I knew where to put them. What they were saying about the fire extinguishers was just plain stupid."

 

** An example of trying to use another boats' documentation back-firing.

 

A further 'derogation'  is that you can 'home-build' for personal use but are not allowed to sell it for 5 years, giving the time to 'turn-turtle' due to instability, catch fire due to a fuel leak, explode due to a gas leak etc etc.

It is presumed that if it hasn't killed its builder within 5 years then it is probably safe enough for someone to buy it.

Wasn't there a fairly recent case of a builder being prosecuted because he built a narrowboat an inch too wide?

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nothing to do with the RCD.

...but presumably relevant to your mentioning that claims for non-compliance often come from customers - in that case, perhaps after the boat got stuck at Hurleston or, before it was rebuilt, the second lock up the Napton flight.

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6 minutes ago, Athy said:

Wasn't there a fairly recent case of a builder being prosecuted because he built a narrowboat an inch too wide?

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nothing to do with the RCD.

 

Interesting point there - if the RCD Owners Manual stated it to be an inch narrower than it was actually constructed, then is that not similar to your "lack of rope ladder" example?

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