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Tides & Brentford Lock


Richardcn

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27 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Where did you read this please? EA's Facebook page wasn't showing this an hour ago and I've not received this info in any of their email updates.

There was a post on the YBW Thames forum early this morning -

"Thank you, I also got a reply from a tweet, so yes we can safely navigate our way around it but the lock will be closed."

 

EA are making quite a lot of use of Twitter and Facebook as an easy way of communicating without having to go through all sorts of processes. I don't twitt, so can't post a link.

Is that OK?

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4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

No idea was was just coming down the Tames to London and asked the Tedington Keeper what would be the best time to leave tomorrow when I moored above the lock for the night and followed his advice. 

Thanks. Fantastic help from you and the forum on this :)

6 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

There was a post on the YBW Thames forum early this morning -

"Thank you, I also got a reply from a tweet, so yes we can safely navigate our way around it but the lock will be closed."

 

EA are making quite a lot of use of Twitter and Facebook as an easy way of communicating without having to go through all sorts of processes. I don't twitt, so can't post a link.

Is that OK?

Marvellous thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Thanks. Fantastic help from you and the forum on this :)

I must be honest I cant recal how long it took from Richond to Brentford as it was a few years back but I remember I never had a problem turning in, The longest wait I had for the barrier was about 10 minutes and I just dodged around with a few other boats, I have also waited coming up because I wanted to go through the lock,(just to say I had done it)  but they wouldn't let me as they would shortly be lifting the barrier

Edited by ditchcrawler
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8 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Check all the fiqures are GMT or BST first. In a narrowboat you can leave Teddington at any state of the tide and make for Richmond half lock. I not sure of the current state of the operation of Richmond Lock but you can wait on the wall above the lock and have some lunch. On neap tides you should be OK to go through the lock if is open and wait around at Brentford otherwise as soon as the barriers go up set off and just push the tide around the corner. It shouldn't take much more than half an hour to get to Brentord even against the tide and you should get there well before HW Brentford.

Most helpful. I've got a good mental picture of this now so I'm going to start getting my ducks lined up in case CRT don't come through with a better offer.

 

Thanks to everybody.

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OK, so on Friday 5th June HW according to the PLA's tidetables is 1319 GMT, ie (rounded) 1415 BST.  High Water at Brentford and Teddington will be 1515 BST (assuming normal summer fresh water flows). That aligns with CRT opening the lock at 1315, ie 2 hours before local HW. It would normally be open until 1715, but clearly they are having staffing difficulties hence closing at high water. 

 

Richmond weir will be lifted at about 1330. You can check the times with the PLA foreman there 020 8940 0634

 

So I would recommend leaving Teddington (and I mean leaving, not starting to undo your mooring lines and start your engine above the lock!) at 1245, it's three miles downstream from there to Richmond. You can pay to go through Richmond lock if you want to, but I wouldn't bother. It's then another 2 miles down to Brentford, when you will be punching the tide. You've got nearly two hours to get there. 

 

The entrance to Brentford Creek is hard to spot. There's a pontoon on the left (north bank) just before, for Brentford Dock marina, and then the creek is on the left just before a silver piece of "modern art". You can explore on google streetview if you like (which covers the entire tideway). I would stay on the right hand side of the river until you can see up the Creek (and the lock with "Thames lock" in large letters), and then ferry glide across the river and up the creek.

 

Hope this helps.

 

(PS: the Teddington Lockkeeper should let you out when you want to go. Just be firm, and explain why you are going much earlier than normal).

 

PPS Watch the headroom on Brentford HIgh St bridge, which can be restricted around HW. There's an air draft gauge on the left. 

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

OK, so on Friday 5th June HW according to the PLA's tidetables is 1319 GMT, ie (rounded) 1415 BST.  High Water at Brentford and Teddington will be 1515 BST (assuming normal summer fresh water flows). That aligns with CRT opening the lock at 1315, ie 2 hours before local HW. It would normally be open until 1715, but clearly they are having staffing difficulties hence closing at high water. 

 

Richmond weir will be lifted at about 1330. You can check the times with the PLA foreman there 020 8940 0634

 

So I would recommend leaving Teddington (and I mean leaving, not starting to undo your mooring lines and start your engine above the lock!) at 1245, it's three miles downstream from there to Richmond. You can pay to go through Richmond lock if you want to, but I wouldn't bother. It's then another 2 miles down to Brentford, when you will be punching the tide. You've got nearly two hours to get there. 

 

The entrance to Brentford Creek is hard to spot. There's a pontoon on the left (north bank) just before, for Brentford Dock marina, and then the creek is on the left just before a silver piece of "modern art". You can explore on google streetview if you like (which covers the entire tideway). I would stay on the right hand side of the river until you can see up the Creek (and the lock with "Thames lock" in large letters), and then ferry glide across the river and up the creek.

 

Hope this helps.

 

(PS: the Teddington Lockkeeper should let you out when you want to go. Just be firm, and explain why you are going much earlier than normal).

 

PPS Watch the headroom on Brentford HIgh St bridge, which can be restricted around HW. There's an air draft gauge on the left. 

That's about the best reply I've ever received. Bloody brilliant!

 

I already had a couple of the pieces sorted, from previous posts but putting it all together and including timings gives me the confidence I needed. I can't thank you enough!

 

I just hope they can raise the titanic before next Friday! I'm actually really looking forward to the adventure now and that's all down to the forum and particularly this post.

 

Again, many thanks

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On 22/05/2020 at 21:44, TheBiscuits said:

 

There are a lot of staff on furlough from CRT.  The decision last week to let us go and look at our boats seems to have caught CRT on the hop, so things should get more sensible once staff are physically available on the ground again.  Hopefully!

and here's me thinking that the CRT would have been consulted, I assumed that the patrol man, I can't remember his name, went back to work on 23rd May, else how will they know about boats on 6th Jun or is that when they start the rota again?

I might as well take my number down again, stealth mode rules!

PS where do I get number plates with no logo , I ve seen them

 

Edited by LadyG
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On 22/05/2020 at 19:59, Scholar Gypsy said:

I hope to talk to CRT about all this next week. There are several big changes to previous operating procedures buried here. Some of them make sense as part of the virus etc. But long term??

Years ago, BW was inconsistent about the Limehouse Lock opening times to the extent it was frequently not available when one reasonably thought it was to be.  If you complained, there was invariably a new, previously un-mentioned rule.  For example, if the opening times would otherwise mean a period of less than an hour, it didn't open at  all.  Or different for days following bank holidays etc.

 

So having asked for ALL the rules, my Dad and brother wrote a programme which they applied to the next year's tidetable and BW was asked to confirm the lock would be manned at the stated times  - which it did.  More surprisingly BW asked how much it would cost to produce the schedule for subsequent years and then took up the offer.  The time-consuming element was entering the HW at London Bridge times from Old Moore's Almanac

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1 minute ago, Tacet said:

Years ago, BW was inconsistent about the Limehouse Lock opening times to the extent it was frequently not available when one reasonably thought it was to be.  If you complained, there was invariably a new, previously un-mentioned rule.  For example, if the opening times would otherwise mean a period of less than an hour, it didn't open at  all.  Or different for days following bank holidays etc.

 

So having asked for ALL the rules, my Dad and brother wrote a programme which they applied to the next year's tidetable and BW was asked to confirm the lock would be manned at the stated times  - which it did.  More surprisingly BW asked how much it would cost to produce the schedule for subsequent years and then took up the offer.  The time-consuming element was entering the HW at London Bridge times from Old Moore's Almanac

I built a spreadsheet in February to do the same thing, as CRT seem to have regressed to doing this task manually. It's now possible to download the tidal data - three months at a time - from the PLA website, in CSV format.

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Just to add best to study the workings of Richmond barrage beforehand, I've found a link for you, apologies if you have already seen this. https://www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Richmond-Lock-and-Weir

When we used to go through Teddington in the summer there could be a dozen or so boats waiting and the lock keeper tried to send us all at the same time which created mayhem when arriving at the smaller lock at Brentford probably not a problem at this time but be prepared to be firm about the time you want to leave.  Scholar Gypsy is THE expert.

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3 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I built a spreadsheet in February to do the same thing, as CRT seem to have regressed to doing this task manually. It's now possible to download the tidal data - three months at a time - from the PLA website, in CSV format.

This was a good while back - before the lock was reduced in size.  I seem to recall that after a few years, the tide data was available in digital form but was rather expensive.  Copying across manually was a liability as a simple mistake would cause problems.

 

Rather more sentimentally, I recall using the dock and lock in the early 1970's.  The wharves were still active, loading scrap metal.  And there would be one or two enormous boats in the basin with crews speaking strange languages.  It was a secretive place.

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12 minutes ago, Tacet said:

This was a good while back - before the lock was reduced in size.  I seem to recall that after a few years, the tide data was available in digital form but was rather expensive.  Copying across manually was a liability as a simple mistake would cause problems.

 

Rather more sentimentally, I recall using the dock and lock in the early 1970's.  The wharves were still active, loading scrap metal.  And there would be one or two enormous boats in the basin with crews speaking strange languages.  It was a secretive place.

I think my favourite was departing pretty much in the dark in February 1987. We didn't leave the boat the night before...

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11 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Just to add best to study the workings of Richmond barrage beforehand, I've found a link for you, apologies if you have already seen this. https://www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Richmond-Lock-and-Weir

When we used to go through Teddington in the summer there could be a dozen or so boats waiting and the lock keeper tried to send us all at the same time which created mayhem when arriving at the smaller lock at Brentford probably not a problem at this time but be prepared to be firm about the time you want to leave.  Scholar Gypsy is THE expert.

That's very useful thanks. I had found that website but I'd not looked at the Richmond page as, at the time, it wasn't relevant. Tis now tho!

11 hours ago, Tacet said:

Years ago, BW was inconsistent about the Limehouse Lock opening times to the extent it was frequently not available when one reasonably thought it was to be.  If you complained, there was invariably a new, previously un-mentioned rule.  For example, if the opening times would otherwise mean a period of less than an hour, it didn't open at  all.  Or different for days following bank holidays etc.

 

So having asked for ALL the rules, my Dad and brother wrote a programme which they applied to the next year's tidetable and BW was asked to confirm the lock would be manned at the stated times  - which it did.  More surprisingly BW asked how much it would cost to produce the schedule for subsequent years and then took up the offer.  The time-consuming element was entering the HW at London Bridge times from Old Moore's Almanac

What a fantastic little piece of history!

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12 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Just to add best to study the workings of Richmond barrage beforehand, I've found a link for you, apologies if you have already seen this. https://www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Richmond-Lock-and-Weir

When we used to go through Teddington in the summer there could be a dozen or so boats waiting and the lock keeper tried to send us all at the same time which created mayhem when arriving at the smaller lock at Brentford probably not a problem at this time but be prepared to be firm about the time you want to leave.  Scholar Gypsy is THE expert.

It's a good job that this procedure has not been needed....  http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/u5of2020-covid19-advancenotification-emergencydrawoff.pdf

There was a Notice to Mariners last year reminding boats to keep clear of the weir gates until they are fully in the raised position and the red markers have been removed. I can't find it now. All fairly obvious really ...

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Here is your marker the silver artwork (see black cross) on the port bank. It's a circa 135 degree turn against the outgoing tide. Follow the moored boats in the Channel which is the River Brent.

 

You won't see the Cart sign.

 

Don't cut the corner - it's shallow there and you could get stuck.

 

As you make the turn you will skid sideways cos of the tide. But don't worry travel back upstream.

 

If you go under Kew Bridge - you have missed the turn!  :)

 

Stunning journey - I love that bit of river. Watch out for logs and trees floating down.

 

Takes circa hour/hour + half in a narrowboat not trying too hard. At about Richmond you will feel the tide pick you up and you will fairly race down.

 

 

 

 

Capture.JPG

Edited by mark99
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40 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Here is your marker the silver artwork (see black cross) on the port bank. It's a circa 135 degree turn against the outgoing tide. Follow the moored boats in the Channel which is the River Brent.

 

You won't see the Cart sign.

 

Don't cut the corner - it's shallow there and you could get stuck.

 

As you make the turn you will skid sideways cos of the tide. But don't worry travel back upstream.

 

If you go under Kew Bridge - you have missed the turn!  :)

 

Stunning journey - I love that bit of river. Watch out for logs and trees floating down.

 

Takes circa hour/hour + half in a narrowboat not trying too hard. At about Richmond you will feel the tide pick you up and you will fairly race down.

 

 

 

 

Capture.JPG

 

 

Its looks like the black cross should be easily visible above the trees.

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49 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Here is your marker the silver artwork (see black cross) on the port bank. It's a circa 135 degree turn against the outgoing tide. Follow the moored boats in the Channel which is the River Brent.

 

You won't see the Cart sign.

 

Don't cut the corner - it's shallow there and you could get stuck.

 

As you make the turn you will skid sideways cos of the tide. But don't worry travel back upstream.

 

If you go under Kew Bridge - you have missed the turn!  :)

 

Stunning journey - I love that bit of river. Watch out for logs and trees floating down.

 

Takes circa hour/hour + half in a narrowboat not trying too hard. At about Richmond you will feel the tide pick you up and you will fairly race down.

 

 

 

 

Capture.JPG

Thanks for the info. Doing it the way that's been offered as a non-standard alternative we will, I believe, still be working against the tide come Brentford or near high tide so probably a different approach dependant, of course, on conditions at arrival.

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30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Its looks like the black cross should be easily visible above the trees.

Oh my gawd. I skim read this on a small screen without having my reading glasses on and assumed that there was a windmill there (even though I hadn't seen one in other photo's). Doh!!! :)

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2 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

It's a good job that this procedure has not been needed....  http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/u5of2020-covid19-advancenotification-emergencydrawoff.pdf

There was a Notice to Mariners last year reminding boats to keep clear of the weir gates until they are fully in the raised position and the red markers have been removed. I can't find it now. All fairly obvious really ...

More Richmond Lock Info:

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/About-Us/Richmond-Lock-and-Weir?fbclid=IwAR1H3omAYnGg3vhDB8VAHXF1dxgpFEkGuNCe2vuqFdvPDiBEIhA8z4qcoZ0

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1 hour ago, Richardcn said:

Thanks for the info. Doing it the way that's been offered as a non-standard alternative we will, I believe, still be working against the tide come Brentford or near high tide so probably a different approach dependant, of course, on conditions at arrival.

That's right - I would expect the tide to be pretty weak then, as you will be arriving at Brentford something up to an hour before local HW. Conditions are also strongly affected by the amount of fresh water flow, and air pressure in the North Sea - tidal predictions are just predictions. You can get more accurate info from the PLA app / website, but I would use the Mark 1 eyeball and maybe your phone to measure speed over the ground.

 

The last trip I did from Teddington to Limehouse, in November, we set out 2.5 hours before HW Teddington (nominally), in order to get to Limehouse in daylight.  In practice there was so much water coming down river (150 cubic metres a second I think) that we never got below 3.2 knots over the ground, even when the tide was supposed to be coming in. Here's the data if anyone is interested. https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2019/11/12/tideway-trip-from-teddington-to-limehouse/  (and also a rather fine photo from @Tim Lewis ) 

nov19_tideway_log.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

That's right - I would expect the tide to be pretty weak then, as you will be arriving at Brentford something up to an hour before local HW. Conditions are also strongly affected by the amount of fresh water flow, and air pressure in the North Sea - tidal predictions are just predictions. You can get more accurate info from the PLA app / website, but I would use the Mark 1 eyeball and maybe your phone to measure speed over the ground.

 

The last trip I did from Teddington to Limehouse, in November, we set out 2.5 hours before HW Teddington (nominally), in order to get to Limehouse in daylight.  In practice there was so much water coming down river (150 cubic metres a second I think) that we never got below 3.2 knots over the ground, even when the tide was supposed to be coming in. Here's the data if anyone is interested. https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2019/11/12/tideway-trip-from-teddington-to-limehouse/  (and also a rather fine photo from @Tim Lewis ) 

nov19_tideway_log.jpg

Liking the idea of a passage plan. Is this your own or available on App or Website?

 

Oh and coincidentally, I notice that NB Scholar Gypsy was built in 1979, the same date as NB Karen, which we are hoping to collect!

Edited by Richardcn
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16 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Liking the idea of a passage plan. Is this your own or available on App or Website?

 

Oh and coincidentally, I notice that NB Scholar Gypsy was built in 1979, the same date as NB Karen, which we are hoping to collect!

It's my own spreadsheet, and a bit too elaborate for your trip perhaps! If you send me an email address via DM I can let you have a copy. But it's a good idea to have your projected times at the various locations noted above, and some intermediate points, so you know if you are more or less on track, and how much of your contingency time you have left. Plus the key phone numbers. If you have a laminator this is a good time to use it....

 

Yes, parts of SG date from 1979. It's been stretched twice since ....

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2 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

It's my own spreadsheet, and a bit too elaborate for your trip perhaps! If you send me an email address via DM I can let you have a copy. But it's a good idea to have your projected times at the various locations noted above, and some intermediate points, so you know if you are more or less on track, and how much of your contingency time you have left. Plus the key phone numbers. If you have a laminator this is a good time to use it....

 

Yes, parts of SG date from 1979. It's been stretched twice since ....

Yeah I had half an idea to do something similar as we're coming from above Chertsey Lock but I'll knock something up by hand, now that I have an understanding of how it's going to (should) go with the 'new' plan. The locks up to Teddington are on self-service so I'll need to allow for that, unless that changes on 1st Jun. I have the numbers ready to put in my phone once I know we can go, ie Sunbury is opened. I'll be so glad when we can actually get going, all this planning is tiring!

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