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What Engine & Stern Should I Go With On My Narrowboat


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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Don't houses use heavier fuel oil, not diesel?

 

Also I thought that the new regulations still allowed low-tax red fuel for heating so long as it's in a separate tank? What they don't allow any longer is buying low-tax fuel, putting it in one tank, claiming without real proof that you're using it for heating, then using it for propulsion.

 

On the EU RCD laws yes it is a bit IF but I think that's what happened (I'd love more info from somebody who knows more), which has more basis in fact than your "it's the EU's fault" claim. But if I'm wrong I'll happily admit it ?

Know they use kerosene which is thinner 28 second against 35 second 

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Know they use kerosene which is thinner 28 second against 35 second 

Thanks. But is the tax the same as it is on red diesel for heating so long as you can *prove* it's for heating?

 

I understand the problem is that most/all canal fuel suppliers won't want to keep two separate diesel tanks for red and white, so if they want to provide fuel for boats to travel on they'll only stock white diesel, which means boaters who use this for heating will pay more. But there's no other way to close the tax fiddle -- which is what it was -- which allowed people to propel their boats on red diesel.

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37 minutes ago, IanD said:

We could/should have asked for generators (and hybrid drives, and diesel-electrics, and...) to be included if we actually wanted to deal with emissions in a way that was fair to everybody. What the rules read as is that our politicians (who don't really understand the problem) asked for a couple of badly-thought out exemptions which turn out to be unclear and open to misinterpretation/rule-bending, and that's exactly what we got. If that's what happened, I can't see how that can possibly be the EU's fault...

I would doubt (no evidence) that in the early '90's anyone was thinking about electric powered / hybrid drives / diesel electric boats, this was the time with 'unlimited hydrocarbon fuels and anything battery powered that lasted more than a few minutes was 'miraculous'. 

 

We didn't have the technology to even consider it. Now the technology is becoming more readily available and acceptable the rules have been changed.

Again I don't have evidence but as we had had the Brexit vote more than a year previously,I doubt we were overly concerned with thinking about getting involved in legislation that affected the 'few historic narrowboat replicas' being built in the UK.

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

But there's no other way to close the tax fiddle -- which is what it was -- which allowed people to propel their boats on red diesel.

 

Aye, but it wasn't a tax fiddle until Belgium complained.  It used to be perfectly legal not to pay propulsion tax on a non-road vehicle like a tractor ... or a boat.  Remember DERV?

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14 minutes ago, IanD said:

On the EU RCD laws yes it is a big IF but I think that's what happened (I'd love more info from somebody who knows more), which has more basis in fact than your "it's the EU's fault" claim. But if I'm wrong I'll happily admit it ?

Fact: The RCD was drafted in Brussels.

Fact: It contains a very poorly written section regarding generators. (It may contain other poorly written sections, I don't know because I've never spent the time to trawl through it in detail.)

Fact: The committee overseeing the drafting of the directive permitted a poorly written section (howsoever it originated) to remain.

 

The RCD is not a British document, it is an EU document.  Its entire contents are the responsibility of the organisation which created it.

 

You may find this link interesting: https://eba.eu.com/technical/rcd/

 

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

Don't houses use heavier fuel oil, not diesel?

Yes.  It's similar, and is what I presumed you were referring to when you wrote "unfairly advantageous to UK boaters who in reality paid less tax on fuel for heating than people in houses,"

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

... as we had had the Brexit vote more than a year previously,I doubt we were overly concerned with thinking about getting involved in legislation that affected the 'few historic narrowboat replicas' being built in the UK.

A very good point :)

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On 21/05/2020 at 13:11, OldGoat said:

quote:

I hope that there is someone who will assist me, if so... Thank you for your help and time.

Thanks, Declan Foley

 

HeHe - you'll not get someone - you'll get loads.

Here's mine

 

Engine - Beta - no contest (Petter is really a compromise, not really a proper trad engine and lacking in torque.  Vetus are overpriced IMHO)

 

 

I missed the Alpha engine - are they still making it !! An awful engine, lacking in torque and clouds of smoke. Defo Beta (with  fresh water cooling, large mud box, PRM 260 gearbox box and whatever-its-called flexible coupling)

 

Agree on the Beta engine but forget the raw water cooling and mudbox and get a properly sized skin tank. Closed circuit keel cooling is hands down the best system on a canal boat as long as the tank (or tanks) are sufficiently sized. Basic rule of thumb is 1sq ft of baffled skin tank/5 hp of engine power.

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18 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Agree on the Beta engine but forget the raw water cooling and mudbox and get a properly sized skin tank. Closed circuit keel cooling is hands down the best system on a canal boat as long as the tank (or tanks) are sufficiently sized. Basic rule of thumb is 1sq ft of baffled skin tank/5 hp of engine power.

I know it's a lost cause - but in true British tradition I'll continue to hammer along. I learnt my boating from Teddesly  Boat Co. Mots of Peter's boats were water cooled.

 

Having burnt my elbow on the exhaust of an ABC hire boat (while 'doing' the weed hatch) I was converted.

Plus points -

  • Cooler engine bay
  • Quieter running
  • Don't overheat when your running too fast (up a river fr'instance)
  • (sounds like a proper river boat)
  • 'proper' boats have wet exhausts  (thank you alan...)
Edited by OldGoat
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23 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Closed circuit keel cooling is hands down the best system on a canal boat as long as the tank (or tanks) are sufficiently sized.

For a 3 foot ditch full of carrier bags and weed, spot on.  I think Beta quote 1 sq ft per 4 hp though.

 

10 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I know it's a lost cause - but in true British tradition I'll continue to hammer along.

  • Don't overheat when your running too fast (up a river fr'instance)
  • (sounds like a proper river boat)
  • 'proper' boats have wet exhausts  (thank you alan...)

 

I think I see where the confusion came in ... Mike was on about canal boats. :D

 

 

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On 21/05/2020 at 19:15, Machpoint005 said:

 

Agree with the engine choice. Not so sure about the dry engine hole - my cruiser stern doesn't let water in because the drainage works properly. The great advantage of a cruiser stern over a trad, in my opinion, is that you can actually get at the engine to service it  even if you don't have three elbows on each arm.

Same as my semi-trad. With a well-fitted deck board and clear drainage channel there's no water ingress.

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3 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Or weed on the waterline?

 

I reckon there might be a lot of that when we get back to t'boat.

Having just been to the boat for the day, I can confidently state that the bottom of the boat is much lusher and greener than the lawn!

 

Bod.

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18 hours ago, OldGoat said:

I know it's a lost cause - but in true British tradition I'll continue to hammer along. I learnt my boating from Teddesly  Boat Co. Mots of Peter's boats were water cooled.

 

Having burnt my elbow on the exhaust of an ABC hire boat (while 'doing' the weed hatch) I was converted.

Plus points -

  • Cooler engine bay
  • Quieter running
  • Don't overheat when your running too fast (up a river fr'instance)
  • (sounds like a proper river boat)
  • 'proper' boats have wet exhausts  (thank you alan...)

So your saying go for raw water cooled over keel?

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5 minutes ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

So your saying go for raw water cooled over keel?

He is, but see my comment about 3ft ditches full of plastic bags and weeds.

 

Raw water cooling at sea or on the deep wide rivers is a very different thing to raw water cooling on the shallow narrow canals - especially in urban areas.  I have had both, and there is no way I would go back to raw water cooled for the canals.

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12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

He is, but see my comment about 3ft ditches full of plastic bags and weeds.

 

Raw water cooling at sea or on the deep wide rivers is a very different thing to raw water cooling on the shallow narrow canals - especially in urban areas.  I have had both, and there is no way I would go back to raw water cooled for the canals.

Okay, thankyou

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56 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

He is, but see my comment about 3ft ditches full of plastic bags and weeds.

 

Raw water cooling at sea or on the deep wide rivers is a very different thing to raw water cooling on the shallow narrow canals - especially in urban areas.  I have had both, and there is no way I would go back to raw water cooled for the canals.

And provided the skin tank is big enough it wont overheat

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2 hours ago, FutureNarrowboater2026 said:

So your saying go for raw water cooled over keel?

Yes, I am BUT only if it's designed properly.

I've seen boats with 1/4" pipe welded in to the bottom of the boat with a feeble filter on the top.

To do it properly you need a hole in the side with a coarse grille, wihin a 6" x 6" box whose top is above the water line.

In 30 years it's only become slightly blocked when She Who Must Be Obeyed pulled over to the offside in a Shroppie lock flight and it was blocked  on the outside by leaves. She pulled away and we continued up the flight without any problems.

 

I asked the builder for a mud box and that's what I got. I don't think he charged me extra for the feature.

The engine runs quieter and doesn't annoy others if / when charging batteries / wating  for locks/  boating slowly.

 

We had hired boats with and without and disliked the tinny / echoy sound from a conventional silencer box - whether or not it is an 'hospital' variety.

Tha fact that we keep her on a river is not the point - at the time of build we were committed canallers - it's just that the canals are a long way from them we keep her on  the Thames.

 

I've no axe to grind, you asked and I put my case.

 

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