Fuel pipe for diesel heater BSS requirements

[TNLI]

2 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

With the greatest of respect Lad, you do seem to be making rather hard work for yourself.

Surely,when planning a trip like yours,wouldn't it be better to keep things as simple as possible?

You obviously enjoy sleeping on a bed of nails and walking around with stones in your shoes,but keeping boat systems simple and accessible would I think be better.

Hope I havn't offended you.

You have, so it's pistols or handbags at dawn!

  I've walked around with small stones stuck in the sole of my boots, but would never risk walking on a bed of nails or hot coals. 

 

Alas my sealed engine bay plans do include fire proof glass panels on either side, so any BSS inspector might get interested in how the bilge pumps work. Also they might be aware that the BMC 1500 rocker cover gasket, (Just fitted a new alloy cover and gasket), has a habit of degrading, starting an oil leak that would be rather visible as it drips down the side! A roll of bog paper stolen from the nearest canal operators club was my initial plan for engine oil leaks, until I heard about all the BSS requirements.

 

The ASAP solution:

MyCelx BilgeKleen Bilge Filter System BK-0 (asap-supplies.com)

 

OR my solution, just cut up part of one of these 5 micron rated filters, or even sell the CAV and buy a clear plastic tube to fit the filter in ??

SPECTRUM Carbon Wrap - 5 Micron Filter Cartridge | Machine Spares Shop (mdspareparts.com)

Edited January 9, 2022 by TNLI

[Bod]

The first one may work, but only with a very low output bilge pump, and has a very limited storage capacity for separated oil/fuel.

The second one will not work, and should not be considered.

Neither type are suitable for you purpose.  You have been advised of the best way to contain leaking engine oil.

 

Bod.

[TNLI]

20 minutes ago, Bod said:

The first one may work, but only with a very low output bilge pump, and has a very limited storage capacity for separated oil/fuel.

The second one will not work, and should not be considered.

Neither type are suitable for you purpose.  You have been advised of the best way to contain leaking engine oil.

 

Bod.

Both filters would need an inline bilge pump, not a normal one. They do cost slightly more and I can't find a small one that has a built in float switch, which adds to the cost.

  I don't know how much oil or fuel the BSS think an engine will spill and I will ask ASAP if they have a matching bilge pump. The second one is also a 5 micron element for a larger unit. It will work if I can find a tube that it fits, as I the larger unit it was designed for is expensive.

 

No one has offered any real sensible advice apart from listing part of the BSS regulations, so I will look up the exact list as it must be in a download someplace. In reality this oil leak game is not a priority at present, as I'm thinking of doing the sea trials from Portland marina, as that is the nearest one that allows live aboard owners. It's also real close to some great rough weather in the famous Portland race. I'm mostly interested in BSS regulations just in case I decide to change my plans for some reason.

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Both filters would need an inline bilge pump, not a normal one. They do cost slightly more and I can't find a small one that has a built in float switch, which adds to the cost.

  I don't know how much oil or fuel the BSS think an engine will spill and I will ask ASAP if they have a matching bilge pump. The second one is also a 5 micron element for a larger unit. It will work if I can find a tube that it fits, as I the larger unit it was designed for is expensive.

 

No one has offered any real sensible advice apart from listing part of the BSS regulations, so I will look up the exact list as it must be in a download someplace. In reality this oil leak game is not a priority at present, as I'm thinking of doing the sea trials from Portland marina, as that is the nearest one that allows live aboard owners. It's also real close to some great rough weather in the famous Portland race. I'm mostly interested in BSS regulations just in case I decide to change my plans for some reason.

Its not that difficult, all you have to do is make a tray to go under the engine and gearbox. you seam to be the one who wants to complicate matters I'm afraid

[Ianws]

Good luck in the rough seas. If you dont already have experience of them, listen to people who do. 

 

 

[TNLI]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its not that difficult, all you have to do is make a tray to go under the engine and gearbox. you seam to be the one who wants to complicate matters I'm afraid

I do not understand why a tray that can overflow with any boat that can list or heel over is of any real use unless it's a seriously big one, also I do not need to fit a tray if the engine bay bilge area under the engine is sealed. What I do need is a bilge pump for the engine, so the BSS requirements don't really complicate things in construction terms. 

  

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I do not understand why a tray that can overflow with any boat that can list or heel over is of any real use unless it's a seriously big one, also I do not need to fit a tray if the engine bay bilge area under the engine is sealed. What I do need is a bilge pump for the engine, so the BSS requirements don't really complicate things in construction terms. 

  

 

I think you need to decide where you are going to operate this life-boat, there are too many differences between (re)building it to Life boat standards (self righting etc etc) and canal standards (where 10cc's of oil must be contained).

 

I Iearnt some years ago that doing things on the cheap costs more in the long term as you will have to re-do it and re-do and re-do it.

 

[ditchcrawler]

53 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I do not understand why a tray that can overflow with any boat that can list or heel over is of any real use unless it's a seriously big one, also I do not need to fit a tray if the engine bay bilge area under the engine is sealed. What I do need is a bilge pump for the engine, so the BSS requirements don't really complicate things in construction terms. 

  

Its required for the Inland Waterways. When the tray starts to get full with spilt oil, diesel and water you clean it out, do you expect your Lifeboat to heal on the canals and spill its contents in the bilge. The BSS is an inland waterway requirement. Why does the engine need a bilge pump?

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you need to decide where you are going to operate this life-boat, there are too many differences between (re)building it to Life boat standards (self righting etc etc) and canal standards (where 10cc's of oil must be contained).

 

 

So are we saying the BSS does not expect a canal boat to heel over significantly?

 

And yet the BSS requires batteries to be physically secured against movement in any direction including vertical, and able to cope with the boat heeling over up to 45 degrees. So I wonder how come leaked engine fluids are allowed to slop about in a brim-full open engine tray?

 

 

[TNLI]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its required for the Inland Waterways. When the tray starts to get full with spilt oil, diesel and water you clean it out, do you expect your Lifeboat to heal on the canals and spill its contents in the bilge. The BSS is an inland waterway requirement. Why does the engine need a bilge pump?

 

If one of the water hoses falls off, or the engine bay needs a clean, I like the idea of not needing to use a bucket and chuck it approach. So the plan is to fit a small bilge pump for the sealed bilge area. It's far better and cheaper to seal that area than to fit a big drip tray. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

So are we saying the BSS does not expect a canal boat to heel over significantly?

 

And yet the BSS requires batteries to be physically secured against movement in any direction including vertical, and able to cope with the boat heeling over up to 45 degrees. So I wonder how come leaked engine fluids are allowed to slop about in a brim-full open engine tray?

 

 

 

No, I'm saying that the Lifeboat requirements (to which he has previously stated he is building to) requires the boat to be inverted and to be self-righting.

Any 'drip-tray' under the engine is unlikely to retain the oil when the boat is inverted.

[Mike Hurley]

14 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

My family motto is, "Never give up", 

My family motto is, If your engine leaks then fix it.😀

[Momac]

4 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

If one of the water hoses falls off, or the engine bay needs a clean, I like the idea of not needing to use a bucket and chuck it approach. So the plan is to fit a small bilge pump for the sealed bilge area. It's far better and cheaper to seal that area than to fit a big drip tray. 

I think the term 'drip tray' gives the wrong impression.

The oil catch should be able to take the full oil content of the engine plus a safety margin.

If the area is bunded to create the oil catch it is not then required to fit a bilge pump. I don't have a bilge pump in the oil catch.

Preferably the engine should not ordinarily leak

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

So are we saying the BSS does not expect a canal boat to heel over significantly?

 

And yet the BSS requires batteries to be physically secured against movement in any direction including vertical, and able to cope with the boat heeling over up to 45 degrees. So I wonder how come leaked engine fluids are allowed to slop about in a brim-full open engine tray?

 

 

Best  not to assume the BSS to be logical and  sensible. In practice canal boats don't need to heel over very much . A narrowboat healed over at 45 degrees would sink.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 hours ago, TNLI said:

I don't know how much oil or fuel the BSS think an engine will spill

All of it. 5 to 10 litres, depending on sump capacity. Think an oil union becoming disconnected, or a connecting rod getting thrown through the crank case. The tray, or bund needs to be sized to hold all the engine and gearbox oil. There is likely to be no, or minimal water in there. An oil filter on a bilge pump drawing from there will just fill up with oil and no water will come out. What is the point? The idea of having a pump with oil filter just to deal with a few drips from the rocker cover is bizarre. Just mop it up with a rag every few weeks. A pump won't be drawing liquid till there is a couple of cm depth in the tray anyway, which will be several litres of oil/water/gloop. Bilge pumps and level switches tend to clog up and fail to work when in oil/grease/water mixes.

 

The oil tray, or bund is to stop major engine oil leaks ending up in the cut when an automated bilge pump kicks in from the liquid level rising around it. The oil is contained in an area away from the bilge pump where it can be dealt with separately and not just dumped in the cut. The 5 micron filter on a bilge pump outside the bund is to stop other minor hydrocarbon leaks in the bilge ending up in the cut, like the grease from the stern gland, assuming it is that sort of stern gland. You should not be bilge pumping from the oil tray to the outside world at all! There is no point to this. Any oil, or water in there should be mopped up and disposed of in other, more environmentally friendly ways.

If the engine bund does fill with water, will this sink the lifeboat? I doubt it very much. Calculate the volume of water needed to fill it, then see what that does to the boat's bouyancy. Once water overflows the bund, it can be dealt with by the regular bilge pump. It is an emergency and no one is going to care about a few oil drops in there. 

10 hours ago, TNLI said:

the BSS regulations, so I will look up the exact list as it must be in a download someplace.

13 hours ago, TNLI said:

my sealed engine bay plans do include fire proof glass panels on either side

I gave you a link to the BSS private boat requirements in an earlier reply, but here it is again.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-core-private-boat-public-interim-complete-compress.pdf

 

If you stop water getting in to the bunded area under the engine, there should be no need for a bilge pump there.

A running BMC engine on an inverted lifeboat is going to destroy itself very quickly!

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

Best  not to assume the BSS to be logical and  sensible. In practice canal boats don't need to heel over very much . A narrowboat healed over at 45 degrees would sink.

But yachts heal to some degree. its not just Narrowboats that the BSS applies to

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, MartynG said:

Best  not to assume the BSS to be logical and  sensible. In practice canal boats don't need to heel over very much . A narrowboat healed over at 45 degrees would sink.

 

Except this happens several times a year.

 

Chilling a boat in a lock would be traumatic enough without an electrical fire at the same time.  I suppose refilling the lock would put the fire out but I'd rather not try it myself ...

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I suppose refilling the lock would put the fire out

 

What if you have Lithiums ?

 

I wonder when the BSS will stipulate "FLE" fire extinguishers if you have lithium batteries on board.

Just a small cost-adder (when compared to the price of the batteries) at ~£350 each.

 

Firechief - FLE6 - Lith-Ex Fire Extinguisher - 6L - [HS-FLE6] (thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk)

 

 

Features:

• Designed specially for use on lithium battery fires
• Comes with CE certification
• Non-toxic and environmentally friendly
• 5-year Warranty
• Kitemark approved (Models FLE2, FLE6, FLE9)
• Can extinguish Lithium-ion battery fires, uncontrollable by other extinguisher types
• Quickly cools and prevents excessive heat, forming a thermal barrier to stop fire propagation
• Easy to store
• Ideal for use on mobile phones, laptops, tablets, power tools, toys, electric scooters and e-bikes

Edited January 10, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What if you have Lithiums ?

 

 

There seems to be several different types and chemistries employed in lithium batteries and from what was said right at the start of the lithium topics on here the LiFePo4 batteries that boaters tend to use so not present the fire danger that other types do. I have seen a video of someone drilling right through an LiFePo4 battery with no sign of it catching fire and igniting. Bet the drill bit got hot though. Now if a boater got hold of some second hand Boing Dreamliner batteries or built a bank from lap top batteries things would be very different but my understanding is that LiFePo4 batteries do not  present the self ignition and fire danger.

[Momac]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But yachts heal to some degree. its not just Narrowboats that the BSS applies to

My motorboat can heel over in a turn if at  speed  - but not applicable on a canal really,  at least not legally.

I can think of a couple of bends on the Trent below Gainsborough where heeling over is a potential thing but if an engine has ditched its sump contents there would be insufficient power to maintain the speed to heel significantly.

Sailing on a river  in a powered yacht is rarely seen. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Except this happens several times a year.

At that point there is pollution in the water regardless of any provisions on the boat.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Sailing on a river  in a powered yacht is rarely seen. 

 

Not a @dylanwinter fan then?

 

https://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/

[Momac]

22 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Not a @dylanwinter fan then?

 

https://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/

Not a fan. 

I did say 'rarely' 

 

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

All of it. 5 to 10 litres, depending on sump capacity. Think an oil union becoming disconnected, or a connecting rod getting thrown through the crank case. The tray, or bund needs to be sized to hold all the engine and gearbox oil. There is likely to be no, or minimal water in there. An oil filter on a bilge pump drawing from there will just fill up with oil and no water will come out. What is the point? The idea of having a pump with oil filter just to deal with a few drips from the rocker cover is bizarre. Just mop it up with a rag every few weeks. A pump won't be drawing liquid till there is a couple of cm depth in the tray anyway, which will be several litres of oil/water/gloop. Bilge pumps and level switches tend to clog up and fail to work when in oil/grease/water mixes.

 

The oil tray, or bund is to stop major engine oil leaks ending up in the cut when an automated bilge pump kicks in from the liquid level rising around it. The oil is contained in an area away from the bilge pump where it can be dealt with separately and not just dumped in the cut. The 5 micron filter on a bilge pump outside the bund is to stop other minor hydrocarbon leaks in the bilge ending up in the cut, like the grease from the stern gland, assuming it is that sort of stern gland. You should not be bilge pumping from the oil tray to the outside world at all! There is no point to this. Any oil, or water in there should be mopped up and disposed of in other, more environmentally friendly ways.

If the engine bund does fill with water, will this sink the lifeboat? I doubt it very much. Calculate the volume of water needed to fill it, then see what that does to the boat's bouyancy. Once water overflows the bund, it can be dealt with by the regular bilge pump. It is an emergency and no one is going to care about a few oil drops in there. 

I gave you a link to the BSS private boat requirements in an earlier reply, but here it is again.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-core-private-boat-public-interim-complete-compress.pdf

 

If you stop water getting in to the bunded area under the engine, there should be no need for a bilge pump there.

A running BMC engine on an inverted lifeboat is going to destroy itself very quickly!

 

The engine low oil pressure alarm will probably go off if the angle of dangle is beyond 30 degrees, and I always wire alarm panels to shut the engine down, although that does mean fitting a stop solenoid to the HP pump, a disable switch or button to allow the engine to start and a simple small hold off relay wired to the alarm and stop solenoid. Most big engines and generators, along with nearly all modern lifeboats have auto stop engine controls. So although my engine bay would easily hold the entire oil or coolant contents. (Far more as it's keel cooled), I would be very surprised if you lost more than half the oil before the alarm sounds.

  Fuel return feed line leaks are bad news, and I've had a few on commercial fishing boats caused by metal fatigue of the Copper return connections near the last injector. No warning, nothing, as even a CO monitor does not respond to diesel leaks. That's one good reason to install see through panels and engine bay lighting. 

 

I agree the engine bay bilge pump filter is a bit of a daft idea, but I did not write the BSS requirements, as that part should be changed to a proper oil mop in the bilge. They are around a tenner plus postage. 

  The bund in the engine bay is not connected to the aft cabin bilge, and all modern lifeboats and many offshore commercial fishing boats have sealed engine bays. Part of the reason is to keep smoke from an overheating or fire from entering the cabin. The engine bay blower will just direct it outside. 

 

How many folks have had their engine bay area inspected by a BSS inspector ?? 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by TNLI

[Jen-in-Wellies]

44 minutes ago, TNLI said:

How many folks have had their engine bay area inspected by a BSS inspector ?? 

Every one with an inland boat and an engine.

45 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I agree the engine bay bilge pump filter is a bit of a daft idea, but I did not write the BSS requirements, as that part should be changed to a proper oil mop in the bilge. They are around a tenner plus postage. 

There is nothing to say you can't have an oil mop, just that you can't have a bilge pump there. BSS doesn't care how much oil your engine leaks, only that it doesn't end up in the inland waterway. There is much less water than the sea, so a little oil causes a lot of pollution.

[Momac]

38 minutes ago, TNLI said:

 

 

How many folks have had their engine bay area inspected by a BSS inspector ?? 

 

 

That should be everyone who has a boat with an engine bay. And if not the surveyor is not doing his job.

I have never been present for a BSS inspection despite having at least four done .  I know the surveyor I use inspects the engine bay as he found the lack of oil catch and lack of bilge filter in my friends boat. 

I also know of cases where no such inspection has been conducted . 

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

How many folks have had their engine bay area inspected by a BSS inspector ?? 

 

 

Probably most