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Fuel pipe for diesel heater BSS requirements


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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The allowed filter(s) are very specific and only a couple of brands / models are approved for canal use (with very expensive replacement filters)

 

snip

 

 

I am not sure that is true. I have never heard of an aluminium CAV sedimentor of agglomerator (filter) being held as non-compliant bring failed or not being BSS compliant as long as they are fitted with a metal drain plug. The sedmentor does not use a filter and the 296 element for the agglomerator is only a few pounds. It is when you feel the need for a see through bowl does the cost rocket.

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not sure that is true. I have never heard of an aluminium CAV sedimentor of agglomerator (filter) being held as non-compliant bring failed or not being BSS compliant as long as they are fitted with a metal drain plug. The sedmentor does not use a filter and the 296 element for the agglomerator is only a few pounds. It is when you feel the need for a see through bowl does the cost rocket.

 

We are not talking about fuel filters. The topic has moved on from fuel filter to oily bilges without an 'engine tray'.

 

The item under discussion is a "Bilge pump oil separator" which is specified by the BSS (and strangely, is produced by a company in which the BSS &/or RCR have some 'involvement in')

 

 

Boat Safety Scheme - Bilge Pump Filters Does the bilge pumping system minimise the risk of avoidable pollution? - Fixed bilge pumps and bilge suction pipes must not draw from an engine tray or oil‐tight area, unless the: discharge is through a bilge water filter capable of a 5ppm discharge performance level, as verified by markings on the filter or an appropriate declaration from the manufacturer or supplier, or there is a facility to discharge to a holding tank.

 

The 'medium' sized filter is ~£200 and the filter inserts are ~£80 each

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Glad you say they will accept a filter on the engine bay area bilge pump, as I was told by one chap in the forum that I would need to fit a tray under my BMC donkey.

There are ways and means. Depending on your boat, it doesn't have to be a tray. If fibreglass, then isolating the section under the engine to make a bund will do it. If steel, then welded walls will do this. I made a tray from 0.5mm thick folded aluminium sheet that was flexible enough to slide under a BMC engine for a friends boat and has passed two inspections so far. As long whatever you make has the capacity to hold all the engine oil and keep it separate from the rest of the bilge it will do.

My reading of the requirements is that the oil tight tray/area under the engine and gearbox has to be there. A filter in the bilge pump is not an alternative to having a tray under engine and gearbox. However, if a bilge pumps draws from the oil tray, then it must have an approved filter. Most inland boats get round this by not bilge pumping from under the engine at all.

From section 9 of the current private boat requirements.

 

Quote

All fixed internal combustion engine and gearbox installations must have
an engine tray or oiltight area.
Each engine tray or oiltight area must be at least as long and as wide as
the combined length/width of the engine and gearbox.
The material of each engine tray or oiltight area must be nonporous
and oil resistant.
All engine trays or oiltight areas, including joints and seams, must be
free of signs of leaks, damage and deterioration.
The volume of each engine tray or oiltight area must be sufficient to
retain the estimated capacity of the engine/gearbox sumps.
NOTE oiltight areas must collect from within the engine space and must not extend into other parts of the
vessel.

 

And

Quote

Fixed bilge pumps and bilge suction pipes must not
draw from an engine tray or oiltight area, unless
the:
discharge is through a bilge water filter capable
of a 5ppm discharge performance level, as
verified by markings on the filter or an
appropriate declaration from the manufacturer
or supplier; or,
there is a facility to discharge to a holding tank.

Taken from section 9 of the private boat requirements, which I'd recommend reading, rather than going on what other people, including some BSS examiners say are the requirements.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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14 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Taken from section 9 of the private boat requirements, which I'd recommend reading, rather than going on what other people, including some BSS examiners say are the requirements.

Jen

 

I'd agree - but with the variability of the examiners understanding of the rules, I'd go further and suggest contacting the BSS directly and get a written response from them, which can then be used to provide evidence to your examiner that your planned system is OK (assuming it is)

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd agree - but with the variability of the examiners understanding of the rules, I'd go further and suggest contacting the BSS directly and get a written response from them, which can then be used to provide evidence to your examiner that your planned system is OK (assuming it is)

Good advice if you are planning a non-standard way of building something covered by the BSS and hoping it will pass.

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2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Ahh! Glad you say they will accept a filter on the engine bay area bilge pump, as I was told by one chap in the forum that I would need to fit a tray under my BMC donkey. I hope the canal inspection is similar to the BSS one, or am I clutching at a thin straw ?

 

An oil catch sump / tray / or an area of bilge bunded off from the rest of the bilge and located  under the engine which is not served by a bilge pump and with a volume capacity greater than the oil volume in the engine is acceptable.  So if the engine empties its own sump  the oil will not be pumped overboard.

It could be easier to fit the special filter on the bilge pump outlet. 

The filter element need never be replaced if the bilge is clean and usually dry although I suspect this is often not the case with narrowboats. 

In my case the boat has the oil catch area incorporated in the design even though it is a lumpy water boat.

 

The BSS does not apply to boats kept on the coast which seems a bit odd really . However the BSS does apply to boats kept on the river like mine. The BSS rules do not differentiate between a river or a canal boat.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not sure that is true. I have never heard of an aluminium CAV sedimentor of agglomerator (filter) being held as non-compliant bring failed or not being BSS compliant as long as they are fitted with a metal drain plug. The sedmentor does not use a filter and the 296 element for the agglomerator is only a few pounds. It is when you feel the need for a see through bowl does the cost rocket.

Thanks Tony, good thing I did not bin the CAV 296 after replaced it with a spin on conversion kit.  It would need to match the bilge pump in fitting terms, which will be a bit of a pain. I presume you need a different filter or glass bowl or what ??

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13 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thanks Tony, good thing I did not bin the CAV 296 after replaced it with a spin on conversion kit.  It would need to match the bilge pump in fitting terms, which will be a bit of a pain. I presume you need a different filter or glass bowl or what ??

 

I'm confused - are you replacing a CAV296 fuel filter with an oil separator bige filter ?

 

Only certain filters are approved for use under the BSS regas and a CAV filter is not one of them.

 

Maybe you can clarify what you are asking about and intend to do.

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10 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thanks Tony, good thing I did not bin the CAV 296 after replaced it with a spin on conversion kit.  It would need to match the bilge pump in fitting terms, which will be a bit of a pain. I presume you need a different filter or glass bowl or what ??

I was one about fuel filters and water traps, not bilge water cleaners. I can't see the point of bilge water cleaners when it is not too difficult to provide a drip tray type area below the engine. Unless the engine has bad leaks that need addressing a couple of bilge blankets in the tray keeps it clean and dry. Renew as part of the service.

 

In your case it would probably be far  easier and more reliable to bund off the area under your engine in some way. On an aluminium boat I would be temped to use the hull and a couple of wooden end pieces as a former of laying up a GRP "tray". If the hull design is such that you need drain holes (limber holes) through that area you could put a tube or a pair of tubes through that are before laying the GPR.

I say bilge water cleaners because i don't think they are straight filters although they may look like them. i think the materials are hydrophobic and "oilioscopic".

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In order to help the unsinkable requirement for my lifeboat, I plan to fit a set of engine covers that keep the engine bay sealed off from the rest of the aft cabin bilge area, so I will need to fit a separate bilge pump and converted CAV filter if that is OK for the BSS

  Oddly enough my old wreck did have a rather old BSS certificate and it did not have a tray under the engine or a divided bilge, so I presume the requirements have been changed ??

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5 minutes ago, TNLI said:

In order to help the unsinkable requirement for my lifeboat, I plan to fit a set of engine covers that keep the engine bay sealed off from the rest of the aft cabin bilge area, so I will need to fit a separate bilge pump and converted CAV filter if that is OK for the BSS

  Oddly enough my old wreck did have a rather old BSS certificate and it did not have a tray under the engine or a divided bilge, so I presume the requirements have been changed ??

Even if the requirements have changed,it is still the interpretation of the rules your inspector makes.As has been pointed out by other members,they do vary in their strictness or laxity.

As for making a boat "unsinkable,"well good luck with that.

I wonder how many "unsinkable"boats are on the bottom.

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9 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Even if the requirements have changed,it is still the interpretation of the rules your inspector makes.As has been pointed out by other members,they do vary in their strictness or laxity.

As for making a boat "unsinkable,"well good luck with that.

I wonder how many "unsinkable"boats are on the bottom.

A fire can sink most boats, but offshore lifeboats have 3 main watertight bulkheads and my design should be unsinkable if the 2 side lockers next to the fuel tanks are stuffed fairly full of bags of pasts, noodles and assorted light weight consumables, rather than cans of extra diesel. Relying on bulkheads is rather iffy in a serious collision, cos if the offender hits the hull next to the bulkhead, it could result in 2 compartments flooding. Oddly enough I was talking to the skipper of the local Dorset Queen ferry, and they decided to fit bags of ping pong balls! 

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1 hour ago, TNLI said:

so I will need to fit a separate bilge pump and converted CAV filter if that is OK for the BSS

 

So, am I correct in saying, you want to run your bilge pump outlet thru a CAV diesel fuel filter and expect this to comply with the BSS requirements.

 

 

I think you are maybe having problems comprehending the regulations

 

Boat Safety Scheme - Bilge Pump Filters Does the bilge pumping system minimise the risk of avoidable pollution? - Fixed bilge pumps and bilge suction pipes must not draw from an engine tray or oil‐tight area, unless the: discharge is through a bilge water filter capable of a 5ppm discharge performance level, as verified by markings on the filter or an appropriate declaration from the manufacturer or supplier, or there is a facility to discharge to a holding tank.

 

Is the CAV filter marked on the filter with a declaration that it has a 5ppm discharge performance when used on oil contaminated water ?

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Lots of big orange ex offshore ones about

 

Not on "many" canals - yes they do fit on the bigger, deeper canals but I have never seen one on a narrow canal.

The ones you do see tend to be gathered in "ghettos of orange" (or have bred). The "South", GU and London seem to have quite a few.

 

Paddington Arm

 

 

Photos of Grand Union Canal Towpath: Paddington Branch - London, England |  AllTrails

 

 

Regents Canal

 

Lifeboat Houseboat, Regent's Canal, London | Iain McLauchlan | Flickr

 

 

 

K & A

 

david allen on Twitter: "Not something you see everyday on the  #kennetandavon canal at Newbury 😳 56-person lifeboat @CanalRiverTrust @RNLI  https://t.co/TItrQ0aFbg" / Twitter

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, TNLI said:

A fire can sink most boats, but offshore lifeboats have 3 main watertight bulkheads and my design should be unsinkable if the 2 side lockers next to the fuel tanks are stuffed fairly full of bags of pasts, noodles and assorted light weight consumables, rather than cans of extra diesel. Relying on bulkheads is rather iffy in a serious collision, cos if the offender hits the hull next to the bulkhead, it could result in 2 compartments flooding. Oddly enough I was talking to the skipper of the local Dorset Queen ferry, and they decided to fit bags of ping pong balls! 

 

There is no way a CAV 296 will separate oil/fuel from water, it will pas the oil and fuel and trap the water. I talked about the 296 because I thought you were talking about fuel filters (see topic title) and not bulge water oil separators. This is one of the problems with how you tend to tack unrelated items onto other topics and then use less than precise language. If you had started a new topic called bilge water separators or something I would never have mentioned the 296. It won't work and is a non-starter in that application.

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10 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

If you have a boat without a catch pit, and have no permanently fitted bilge pump, would you still get a BSS?

 

Not sure what a catch pit is but I don't think the BSS gives a toss about the presence of a bilge pump UNLESS it is piped to drain the engine drip tray. If it could it should be a fail

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18 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

If you have a boat without a catch pit, and have no permanently fitted bilge pump, would you still get a BSS?

Assuming a catch pit is what you are calling an under engine/gearbox tray, or bund, separated from the rest of the bilge, then no, because:

Quote

All fixed internal combustion engine and gearbox installations must have
an engine tray or oiltight area.
Each engine tray or oiltight area must be at least as long and as wide as
the combined length/width of the engine and gearbox.
The material of each engine tray or oiltight area must be nonporous
and oil resistant.
All engine trays or oiltight areas, including joints and seams, must be
free of signs of leaks, damage and deterioration.
The volume of each engine tray or oiltight area must be sufficient to
retain the estimated capacity of the engine/gearbox sumps.
NOTE oiltight areas must collect from within the engine space and must not extend into other parts of the
vessel.

Which doesn't mention bilge pumps/no bilge pump at all. That comes later. The reason being that if the engine dumps oil in to the bilge outside a bund and some one uses a portable bilge pump without an approved oil filter, then both water and oil end up in the cut.

Jen

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25 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

If you have a boat without a catch pit, and have no permanently fitted bilge pump, would you still get a BSS?

 

As Jen says if the examiner follows the rules, then NO, but my experiences would suggest that many examiners would not even look at the engine / geabox area & if he did would not notice if it had a seperate bilge or not.

 

I would not be surprised to see a boat with the system you describe that had a BSSC

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There is no way a CAV 296 will separate oil/fuel from water, it will pas the oil and fuel and trap the water. I talked about the 296 because I thought you were talking about fuel filters (see topic title) and not bulge water oil separators. This is one of the problems with how you tend to tack unrelated items onto other topics and then use less than precise language. If you had started a new topic called bilge water separators or something I would never have mentioned the 296. It won't work and is a non-starter in that application.

 

My family motto is, "Never give up", so if activated Carbon particles can be inserted into a gutted 296 filter, preferably one with a glass bowl, why do you think it will not stop oil and fuel. Activated Carbon is used in fish tanks and other water filters to remove hydrocarbons and many nasty toxic chemicals, and is very cheap.

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Not on "many" canals - yes they do fit on the bigger, deeper canals but I have never seen one on a narrow canal.

The ones you do see tend to be gathered in "ghettos of orange" (or have bred). The "South", GU and London seem to have quite a few.

 

Paddington Arm

 

 

Photos of Grand Union Canal Towpath: Paddington Branch - London, England |  AllTrails

 

 

Regents Canal

 

Lifeboat Houseboat, Regent's Canal, London | Iain McLauchlan | Flickr

 

 

 

K & A

 

david allen on Twitter: "Not something you see everyday on the  #kennetandavon canal at Newbury 😳 56-person lifeboat @CanalRiverTrust @RNLI  https://t.co/TItrQ0aFbg" / Twitter

 Terrible mess in both visual and liveaboard terms, and very unpopular. About the only thing good about modern lifeboats is their Houdini hatches and old diesels, often a real heavy Buch 24 or 36 keel cooled donkey.

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Just now, TNLI said:

 

My family motto is, "Never give up", so if activated Carbon particles can be inserted into a gutted 296 filter, preferably one with a glass bowl, why do you think it will not stop oil and fuel. Activated Carbon is used in fish tanks and other water filters to remove hydrocarbons and many nasty toxic chemicals, and is very cheap.

 

Because the allowable filters must be guaranteed by the manufacturer to work to 5ppm - can you guarantee that your carbon in an old filter case will do this ?

 

If the BSS examiner cannot see it printed on the filter, or, in the suppliers literature it is a 'fail'.

 

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

If you are "working to a budget" and the proper filter system is beyond your means, build a shallow box around the engine & gearbox footprint and stick it down using (something like) Stikaflex and make sure it doesn't leak oily water into the main bilge which houses the bilge pump.

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4 minutes ago, TNLI said:

 

My family motto is, "Never give up", so if activated Carbon particles can be inserted into a gutted 296 filter, preferably one with a glass bowl, why do you think it will not stop oil and fuel. Activated Carbon is used in fish tanks and other water filters to remove hydrocarbons and many nasty toxic chemicals, and is very cheap.

 Terrible mess in both visual and liveaboard terms, and very unpopular. About the only thing good about modern lifeboats is their Houdini hatches and old diesels, often a real heavy Buch 24 or 36 keel cooled donkey.

 

So now you are talking about gutting a 296 filter element and doing your own thing. That is no longer a CAV 296 type element. The normal 296 element agglomerates water droplets and drops them into the bowl while leaving the fuel to pass onward. That means that if the oil was not so viscous to block the element pores it would just pass the hydrocarbons and retain the water. Anyway the inlet and outlet ports are only about 5/16" diameter so I can't see it passing the output of even a small  bilge pump.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Because the allowable filters must be guaranteed by the manufacturer to work to 5ppm - can you guarantee that your carbon in an old filter case will do this ?

 

If the BSS examiner cannot see it printed on the filter, or, in the suppliers literature it is a 'fail'.

 

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

If you are "working to a budget" and the proper filter system is beyond your means, build a shallow box around the engine & gearbox footprint and stick it down using (something like) Stikaflex and make sure it doesn't leak oily water into the main bilge which houses the bilge pump.

 

Or make it form GRP as I  described earlier.

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8 minutes ago, TNLI said:

 

My family motto is, "Never give up", so if activated Carbon particles can be inserted into a gutted 296 filter, preferably one with a glass bowl, why do you think it will not stop oil and fuel. Activated Carbon is used in fish tanks and other water filters to remove hydrocarbons and many nasty toxic chemicals, and is very cheap.

With the greatest of respect Lad, you do seem to be making rather hard work for yourself.

Surely,when planning a trip like yours,wouldn't it be better to keep things as simple as possible?

You obviously enjoy sleeping on a bed of nails and walking around with stones in your shoes,but keeping boat systems simple and accessible would I think be better.

 

Hope I havn't offended you.

 

😜

 

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