12v wiring bamboozlement

[TheBiscuits]

^^^

Wot 'e said

 

[BlueStringPudding]

9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Oh good, you survived

 

No, that's about what we expected to happen.  Just to confirm, can you measure a voltage between PV+ and PV- while PV+ is disconnected.  You might be able to make the PV- connection on the screw head on Vicky instead of trying to poke into the cable hole. Somewhere around 21/22V hopefully. 

 

If you get a voltage around that then reconnect the two battery connection cables, but not the PV cable yet.

 

 

With the cable still joining the Victron Batt pos and neg together in a "short", and the PV neg still in place, my multimeter reads no volts at all between PV pos and PV neg. 

 

Oh I forgot to mention, that the only thing that did happen when I shoved the PV pos back up its hole, is that same damned blue LED flashed the same 3 second fault at me.

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

At which time you should be reading battery voltage on the Victron output terminals (and obviously nothing on the input terminals). 

Exactly as it should have been. 

I don't understand how I would be reading battery voltage when the controller is not connected to the batteries and only connected to the negative PV.

 

 

Shall I just wire everything back up again to the batteries and just omit PV pos for now?

Edited May 22, 2020 by BlueStringPudding

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

I don't understand how I would be reading battery voltage when the controller is not connected to the batteries and only connected to the negative PV.

Re-read post #99. Particularly the bit about reconnecting the output wires to the busbar...

5 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Shall I just wire everything back up again to the batteries and just omit PV pos for now?

Yes. Re-read post #99. 

6 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

With the cable still joining the Victron Batt pos and neg together in a "short", and the PV neg still in place, my multimeter reads no volts at all between PV pos and PV neg. 

Biscuits was talking about the wires from the panels. You won’t have a reading on the controller input because you only have one wire connected. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, BlueStringPudding said:

With the cable still joining the Victron Batt pos and neg together in a "short", and the PV neg still in place, my multimeter reads no volts at all between PV pos and PV neg.

 

Remove the short on the battery connections and test PV voltage again.

 

If still no reading, remove the PV- cable from Vicky and see if there is a voltage between the PV+ and PV- cables when they are both disconnected.  This should be V_oc less a little bit for voltage drop, so  21V (ish) hopefully on your panels.

 

If there is, you had a bad connection on PV- so reconnect it more carefully.  This might have been the trouble all along.

 

If there isn't, have you disturbed any of the panel connections?

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Remove the short on the battery connections and test PV voltage again.

 

If still no reading, remove the PV- cable from Vicky and see if there is a voltage between the PV+ and PV- cables when they are both disconnected.  This should be V_oc less a little bit for voltage drop, so  21V (ish) hopefully on your panels.

 

If there is, you had a bad connection on PV- so reconnect it more carefully.  This might have been the trouble all along.

 

If there isn't, have you disturbed any of the panel connections?

Be aware that if there is no voltage from the panel then the reset won’t have worked. 

[BlueStringPudding]

I did rather too much yesterday and made myself unwell, sorry for disappearing on you all. I'm in bed today but snuck out briefly just to take some multimeter readings at the controllers. I won't be able to do much else today. Monkey is running the engine for me in a moment anyway coz my batteries need charging in the absence of any solar.

 

Before I give you the measurements, this I suspect is relevant: I've not been taking the Victron readings from across the terminal screws because I couldn't get readings there. I assumed the screw heads were not conductive. But this morning I double checked: the Victron Batt terminal screw heads DO show a voltage. The Victron PV screw heads DON'T.  Implying there isn't (any or at least not a constant) voltage going into the controller there.  Shoving the multimeter prongs up where the cable ends are DOES give me readings. Just not good ones anymore. Here's what I've discovered:

 

After yesterday's shorting out games, I put the Victron wiring back together and put new crimp lugs on the end of its cables. (Before the cables were still bare wires going up inside the terminals - I'm wondering whether starting to put lugs on the ends of the Victron cables is what caused the once steady 19v reading to become this weird "19v to 1• jump" reading instead...? Maybe I should go back to bare wires?). Anyway ...

 

Multimeter Readings:

FRIDAY 22nd MAY, NIGHT TIME, batteries under load, not charged that day:

SunSaver PV terminals: 0v (cables disconnected)

SunSaver Batt terminals: 12.33v

Victron PV terminals: 0v (cables connected, blue error light still flashing)

Victron Batt terminals: 12.33v

Busbars: N/A (can't measure them while their covers are in place)

 

SATURDAY 23rd MAY, DAY TIME, batteries not under load:

SunSaver PV terminals: 0v (cables disconnected)

SunSaver Batt terminals: 12.48v

Victron PV terminals: 19.29v jumping to 1• again  (cables connected, blue error light still flashing)

Victron PV cables then disconnected from the controller and measurement taken at cable lugs: 19.29v jumping to 1• still! (Problem with cables at solar panel end or with the lugs? This fault reading wasn't there on day one, but is obviously a separate fault to the Victron fault)

Victron Batt terminals: 12.48v

Busbars: N/A (can't measure them while covers are in place)

 

The above is annoying because the Victron PV cables a few days ago had a steady 19volts suggesting the cables themselves were fine then. And it was only the Victron controller didn't work. Now the cables show 19v for a split second before showing 1• and of course the Victron controller still isn't working too. ? 

So I've "progressed" from having a faulty controller only, to a faulty controller AND faulty/damaged solar panel cables or lugs. And I don't know where they're faulty. ? I've basically doubled the problems.

 

The solar cables and MC4 connectors are all brand new. The panels themselves and the short length of cables that are permanently fitted into them are second hand. The lugs at the controller end of each cable, as I said, have only recently been added and may or may not be causing the voltage reading to jump to 1•. Whatever 1• means. I don't know. When I feel better I'll try to find out what 1• on the multimeter actually means.

Meanwhile my SunSaver solar array is still disconnected.

And I'm in bed feeling like my head will pop ?

 

So, for when I'm next on my feet, however long that will be; what do I do next please? Looks like resolving the cable voltage reading problem before trying again to do the "short-out reset" of the Victron, which still may be broken too. But how do I troubleshoot the PV cables and where do I begin? Do I just cut off all the lugs and start again with bare wires at the Victron terminals? (Running out of replacement lugs) Or do I do something else?

Thanks.

Brain melt now... body broke now.... 

[Alan de Enfield]

I had a similar problem to this on a multimeter - weird voltage readings - and found the battery was 'low'.

 

Just to remove a possible variable can you replace the battery in the multimeter ? (usually a PP9 type - you may have one in your smoke alarm)

[TheBiscuits]

OK, stupid questions that don't involve you doing any work time.

 

Do you know what model of UNI-T multimeter you have so we can check the manual for you.

 

What range did you have the selector set to when checking?

 

 

 

Do you have any spare cable that can reach (outside!) from the solar panels to near the controllers?

 

Do you have any spare solar cable and MC4 connectors?

[Split Pin]

1+ probably means that the voltage reading is out of range for the selected range selection (20V?) so move it up to the next setting probably 200V

[BlueStringPudding]

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I had a similar problem to this on a multimeter - weird voltage readings - and found the battery was 'low'.

 

Just to remove a possible variable can you replace the battery in the multimeter ? (usually a PP9 type - you may have one in your smoke alarm)

Replaced two days ago after it showed the low voltage symbol. It's a new battery. Thanks for the suggestion though ?

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, Split Pin said:

1+ probably means that the voltage reading is out of range for the selected range selection (20V?) so move it up to the next setting probably 200V

That's what I'm wondering too at 19+V

[BlueStringPudding]

53 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

OK, stupid questions that don't involve you doing any work time.

 

Do you know what model of UNI-T multimeter you have so we can check the manual for you.

 

What range did you have the selector set to when checking?

 

 

 

Do you have any spare cable that can reach (outside!) from the solar panels to near the controllers?

 

Do you have any spare solar cable and MC4 connectors?

Thanks ?

 

The multimeter is a UNI-T UT30B

 

Selector range I think has solved the error reading. D'oh! I've only ever used it on the 20v setting so didn't think that the solar input was probably getting a bit close to that or above it, and of course you're right. I've just checked the PV cable voltage with the multimeter dial set to 200v and the reading is a steady 19.8. (Cables not connected to controller) Hooray. Excellent thinking Messrs Biscuits and Split Pin. 

 

I have a small amount of spare cable and one pair of MC4 connectors currently joined to them. It's not enough to make two cable runs to the panels but if I botch them together I might be able to make one cable long enough to replace just the positive or just the negative, if that's what you're thinking. But it'll tight, it may not reach and won't be a permanent thing.

 

-----

 

So if I now have a steady 19.8v reading at the PV cables because the only error that end was with my meter settings, if I were to connect the PV cable to the Victron again, I'm basically back in the same situation as I was with this morning's readings: blue flashing error light on the Victron except with a constant 19.8v at the PV terminals, assuming the terminals aren't damaged inside in some way.

So I will still have the blue flashing light error. I still won't know if yesterday's short-circuit reset trick worked or was even needed. 

So what's next...?

Edited May 23, 2020 by BlueStringPudding

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Selector range I think has solved the error reading. D'oh! I've only ever used it on the 20v setting so didn't think that the solar input was probably getting a bit close to that or above it, and of course you're right. I've just checked the PV cable voltage with the multimeter dial set to 200v and the reading is a steady 19.8. (Cables not connected to controller) Hooray. 

 

Excellent.  Less messing about with spare cables necessary as your solar panel connections seem OK!

 

Next step is redo the voltage flash from yesterday.  You should be able to remove the BATT+ and BATT- cables from their busbars and clothespeg them together to make the shunt, then flash with the PV cable as per yesterday.

 

Do that and reconnect battery cables and then PV cables if you feel up to it.

 

 

 

 

[BlueStringPudding]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Excellent.  Less messing about with spare cables necessary as your solar panel connections seem OK!

 

Next step is redo the voltage flash from yesterday.  You should be able to remove the BATT+ and BATT- cables from their busbars and clothespeg them together to make the shunt, then flash with the PV cable as per yesterday.

 

Do that and reconnect battery cables and then PV cables if you feel up to it.

 

 

 

 

Okay. Ahead of doing that, is it safe to reconnect PV pos and PV neg to the Victron during daylight, while the Victron is connected to the batteries, and while the engine is running? 

Any or all of the above factors will influence when I next get out of bed and whether I attempt any of the above steps today, tonight or tomorrow ?

Edited May 23, 2020 by BlueStringPudding

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Okay. Ahead of doing that, is it safe to reconnect PV pos and PV neg to the Victron during daylight, while the Victron is connected to the batteries, and while the engine is running? 

Any or all of the above factors will influence when I next get out of bed and whether I attempt any of the above steps today, tonight or tomorrow ?

 

You did it twice yesterday and didn't catch fire ...

 

When we replumb you to 60V you'll need to be a bit more careful, but you'll be OK with the wuss gloves and not rubbing big cables on anything!

 

Slightly more serious answer - it's disconnecting them under load that's a bad idea.  As you have free floating cables at the moment there is no current flowing, so it's only when you make the final PV+ connection that you need to do it assertively.  

[BlueStringPudding]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You did it twice yesterday and didn't catch fire ...

 

When we replumb you to 60V you'll need to be a bit more careful, but you'll be OK with the wuss gloves and not rubbing big cables on anything!

? Thanks. Yesterday I only disconnected one PV cable. And the engine wasn't charging the batteries at the same time. Just coz I didn't catch fire then doesn't mean I don't have a surprising capacity to do something very naive next time ?

 

Okay then... When I next feel perkier and venture out of my pit, I'll try to lightningify the Victron for a third time. I'll report back eventually. 

Thanks ?

[BlueStringPudding]

Final poking around for today. 

 

Something of note just now: the 10 second shorting out reset of the Victron caused all three blue lights to illuminate at the same time. That didn't happen with either attempts yesterday. Suggesting it noticed this time. 

I have wired the Victron all back in immediately after turning the engine off.

 

Here are the results of the Increasingly Fecked Off Jury:

SunSaver PV terminals: nil points (0v as expected, its PV cables are still not attached)

SunSaver Batt terminals: 13.0v (as expected if Victron not charging, engine only just turned off)

Victron PV terminals: 19.6v (measured at the screws this time, so maybe my connections are tighter now, or maybe it just works better with the multimeter on the correct setting )

Victron Batt terminals: 13.0v

Busbars: N/A as covered

 

BUT! That bloody 3 second blue Bulk light of doom is still flashing to supposedly indicate that there is not enough power for the controller to begin charging!!! Aaargh! ? It's got 19.6v going into it from the panels! How much more does it want!? ? With an output of just 13.0v it certainly ain't doing a Bulk charge.

 

I despair. 

 

I'm off to be fed delicious foods by Monkey.

 

I'll be happy to hear your current thoughts on what's wrong with the blighter. (The Victron, that is. Not the Monkey. Nowt wrong with that blighter)

Thanks.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by BlueStringPudding

[TheBiscuits]

30 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Something of note just now: the 10 second shorting out reset of the Victron caused all three blue lights to illuminate at the same time. That didn't happen with either attempts yesterday. Suggesting it noticed this time.   Good

I have wired the Victron all back in immediately after turning the engine off.  Good

Here are the results of the Increasingly Fecked Off Jury:

SunSaver PV terminals: nil points (0v as expected, its PV cables are still not attached)

SunSaver Batt terminals: 13.0v (as expected if Victron not charging, engine only just turned off)

Victron PV terminals: 19.6v (measured at the screws this time, so maybe my connections are tighter now, or maybe it just works better with the multimeter on the correct setting )

Victron Batt terminals: 13.0v

Busbars: N/A as covered

  Good

 

BUT! That bloody 3 second blue Bulk light of doom is still flashing to supposedly indicate that there is not enough power for the controller to begin charging!!! Aaargh! ? It's got 19.6v going into it from the panels! How much more does it want!? ? With an output of just 13.0v it certainly ain't doing a Bulk charge.

  Good, as expected!

 

I despair. 

  Not Good

 

I'm off to be fed delicious foods by Monkey.

  Good

 

I'll be happy to hear your current thoughts on what's wrong with the blighter. (The Victron, that is. Not the Monkey. Nowt wrong with that blighter)

 Tee Hee!

 

 

 

What you need to do next is disconnect all the panels from each other (outside the boat, only the Victron panels obviously!)  And replug two of them together in series to give a 40V supply to Vicky and see if the blue light goes out. 

 

If it does and Vicky is charging your batteries at 14V ish (or more likely goes into float at 13.6V) then great, add the third panel in series to give the full 60V feed to Vicky.

 

Note that if the blue flash stops but Vicky is trying to put out 24V Bad Things MIGHT Happen.  You may either isolate everything on the boat (if you have isolators in the right place) to test this or you can start disconnecting batteries reconnecting them and faffing ...

 

It's more likely Vicky will do an alarm squeal for catastrophic low voltage if she thinks it should be 24V and only sees 13V.

 

Have someone watching for this and immediately disconnect the panels if this is the case.

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by TheBiscuits

[BlueStringPudding]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Curiouser and curiouser... ???

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Curiouser and curiouser... ???

It's exam season ...

 

 

... but mainly flaky mobile intertubes. Read the edit!  

[BlueStringPudding]

42 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

What you need to do next is disconnect all the panels from each other (outside the boat, only the Victron panels obviously!)  And replug two of them together in series to give a 40V supply to Vicky and see if the blue light goes out. 

 

If it does and Vicky is charging your batteries at 14V ish (or more likely goes into float at 13.6V) then great, add the third panel in series to give the full 60V feed to Vicky.

 

Note that if the blue flash stops but Vicky is trying to put out 24V Bad Things MIGHT Happen.  You may either isolate everything on the boat (if you have isolators in the right place) to test this or you can start disconnecting batteries reconnecting them and faffing ...

 

It's more likely Vicky will do an alarm squeal for catastrophic low voltage if she thinks it should be 24V and only sees 13V.

 

Have someone watching for this and immediately disconnect the panels if this is the case.

 

Thanks. That all sounds like connecting and disconnecting in series will have to happen in daylight. Which I thought was described in an earlier post as a no-no? 

 

Regarding isolation of the panels, that can only be done by unscrewing a controller terminal and pulling out a cable. Or a poor sacrificial Monkey undoing a MC4 connector on the roof.  Again, are either of these safe at this sort of voltage? 

The only other protection is the fuse down by the batteries but that won't care about the voltage, only amps.

 

It's all sounding rather risky now ?

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Thanks. That all sounds like connecting and disconnecting in series will have to happen in daylight. Which I thought was described in an earlier post as a no-no? 

 

There's a strong argument for not rewiring PV arrays in bright sunshine on your own, but if Alan falls in and you hear him go there is an accident when there is someone there to help it's better.

 

4 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Slightly more serious answer - it's disconnecting them under load that's a bad idea.  As you have free floating cables at the moment there is no current flowing, so it's only when you make the final PV+ connection that you need to do it assertively.  

 

Same applies.  No current, no problem.  Unplug the MC4 that feeds into the boat and you have isolated all the panels.

 

1 hour ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Regarding isolation of the panels, that can only be done by unscrewing a controller terminal and pulling out a cable. Or a poor sacrificial Monkey undoing a MC4 connector on the roof. 

 

That's my favoured method, especially if you do it one evening when the panels are not giving full power, but before it's too dark to get the extra voltage.  I'd even go as far as to say get him to (mostly) make that connection while you watch the voltmeter at the other end, and instantly break it if you shout at him.

 

1 hour ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Again, are either of these safe at this sort of voltage? 

 

You'll be fine.  Wear the wuss gloves and let Alan do the plugging ... 

 

It's OK, honest.  If you only do two panels for the test you are going from 20V open circuit to 40V open circuit, so that will drop as soon as a circuit is made to probably 34V or so.  You don't want to be licking the wires, but it's not like wiring a substation.

 

My warning about doing the 60V stuff on your own on the boat roof is that you are getting to the point where you could fall in the water while gasping, and that's a bad thing.  Once we know it works, wait for dark to add panel three into the array.

 

If it doesn't work today, reconnect Sunni's panels so you have your solar back and we'll go for plan B - I'll beg borrow or steal a USB connection wire or a bluetooth dongle or one of the fancy screen things for you.

 

[BlueStringPudding]

With brave Monkey help, I now have 2 panels wired in series and one disconnected. Here are the readings:

SunSaver PV terminals: 0v (as expected, PV cables for that array are still disconnected)

SunSaver Batt terminals: 12.9v (as expected if Victron not charging, engine was only turned off a little while ago)

Victron PV: 40.3v

Victron Batt: 12.9v

Busbars: N/A (as covered)

 

The Victron 3 second blue light of doom is still flashing. It doesn't seem to be charging.

 

Apart from cry, what's next on my to-do list?

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Apart from cry, what's next on my to-do list?

 

20 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

If it doesn't work today, reconnect Sunni's panels so you have your solar back and we'll go for plan B - I'll beg borrow or steal a USB connection wire or a bluetooth dongle or one of the fancy screen things for you.

 

 

Disconnect the Victron panels (at the MC4 plugs) so the flashing light of irritation stops.

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

The Victron 3 second blue light of doom is still flashing. It doesn't seem to be charging.

Leave the Victron connected and cover the lights with some insulting tape.