First visit in 2 months, some questions...

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

The only time I have set an anchor was on a yacht some years ago, when it came to recovering it I asked the skipper where the winch was "no winch on this boat" he replied you do it by hand.  I was a lot younger and stronger then but jeez I thought I was going to pass out but I had to do it or risk being labelled a wimp.  But this was a 40 footer I thought, why no winch?  Oh, the skipper said, it's a French boat and they expect you'll be spending every night in a marina...

A couple of Summers ago we had a 'catastrophic failure' when deploying the anchor in about 30 feet of water.

Laying out the chin using the winch when a sudden 'bang and lurch', the anchor had grabbed something on the bottom and the jerk ripped the winch off it mountings, 60 metres of chain went flying off the front of the boat before I could get into forward gear and start to get back over the anchor.

 

Handballing 60 metres of chain and a 30kg anchor was not an easy job.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

So, there are a few experts here, my Sea Otter is 40' and about six tons in the water - what size of Rocna/Manton would you suggest and what length of chain/warp - or does it not matter what type of anchor you have?  I think from memory I have 10 metres of chain and 30 metres of 3 strand nylon which is probably a bit over the top.  

 

I'd go for the 10kg Rocna / Mantus / Manson.

Length is 'weird' based on NB's but taking your 6 tons being equivalent to around a 30-33 foot GRP boat I'd suggest the 10kg or 15kg size.

 

Ideally you should have 100% chain and base the length on a MINIMUM of 3x water depth, & ideally 5x. (or more)

 

 

 

 

You can see the effect of Holding Power by having the scope too short :

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

Error in Post #22

 

It is not called UHHP it is called SHHP (Super High Holding Power) and to achieve that status it must have at least 4x the holding power of a standard stockless anchor and twice that holding power of the previous highest rating HHP (High Holding Power)

 

 

http://marinegyaan.com/what-is-super-high-holding-power-or-shhp-anchor/

 

 

[Victor Vectis]

We've got a Danforth.

 

The only time it's been deployed was when we crossed the Wash last year. It held, no problem, but recovery was a bit more tricky as the the flukes kept flopping over and catching under the boat.

 

One of the boats in our convoy had trouble though. The pilot said lay out about 50ft of anchor cable but they confused feet with yards(!)

 

If Mrs Tawny Owl, RLWP or the Moomins read this they might be good enough to post some pics.

[nbfiresprite]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I would simply get rid of those small side pipe fenders. They don’t do any good, are not necessary, and tend to get ripped off in locks creating a potential problem for other boaters. Quite anti-social in fact.

 

Fenders are for mooring, not to compensate for bad driving!

Rope fenders are for the ships cat to climb out of the water.

[cuthound]

We have this type of fender holder which clip onto the handrail.

 

 

They came with the boat so not sure where they came from, but any decent metal fabricator should be able to knock some up cheaply.

 

They are lined with adhesive closed foam tape, so don't damage the paint and can be hooked onto.the handrail exactly where they are needed.

Edited May 17, 2020 by cuthound
Spillung

[Machpoint005]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

>>which offers good holding power once set<<

 

Interesting use of the word "power" for a device which, as far as I can tell, doesn't actually transfer energy. Perhaps "capability"?

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Interesting use of the word "power" for a device which, as far as I can tell, doesn't actually transfer energy. Perhaps "capability"?

A word with several meanings - there are many of them in the English language.

 

Anchors have been rated by 'holding power' for many, many years.

 

 

[system 4-50]

I don't usually forget to lift my fenders before moving off:

 

[Richard10002]

8 hours ago, Tesla said:

Interesting. What is the source of this chart Alan? I have assumed That the Rocha was the mutts.

I think it would be fair to say that Rocna is one of "the mutts" - a New Generation anchor.

 

On my way across the Med towards Greece in 2007, I was planning to call at a chandlers in Lefkas, (IIRC), to buy a Rocna. I had very quickly got sick and tired of my Harbourfast CQR type anchor, which would fail to set at any opportunity and I decided to buy either a Rocna or a Manson Supreme, wherever I could find one first. I would also have bought a Spade, despite them being quite expensive.

 

The research I did at the time, and stuff that I have seen since, suggests that there is little to choose between these new generation concave anchors.

[MHS]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

I don't usually forget to lift my fenders before moving off:

 

The Shroppie step?

We have blue plastic wheelbarrow wheels and they’ve proved invaluable all over the network. 

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, robtheplod said:

All noted re fenders thanks!!!

And when they are fixed they will never be in the right place when you moor up, unless you only ever moor to straight pontoons 

[rasputin]

Mmm

 

So the Danforth will pull out with wind and tide changes, reasonably sure this won't apply when using the anchor as an emergency brake.

 

The Danforth is difficult to set, I suspect that this is due to ineptitude. If the anchor is thrown over the side with tens of m of chain and the boat is put in reverse, it is v likely to drag along the seabed, if it is dropped over the bow of a narrowboat heading at 4mph towards a weir, I suspect it will set.

 

As for the ability to stow flat, derided earlier in the thread, 

 

I would have thought that the ability to be able to store an emergency anchor somewhere handy was highly preferable to some odd shaped thing stuck in a locker somewhere, giver the absence of a dedicated bow roller on most canal boats.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by rasputin

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, rasputin said:

Mmm

 

So the Danforth will pull out with wind and tide changes, reasonably sure this won't apply when using the anchor as an emergency brake.

 

The Danforth is difficult to set, I suspect that this is due to ineptitude. If the anchor is thrown over the side with tens of m of chain and the boat is put in reverse, it is v likely to drag along the seabed, if it is dropped over the bow of a narrowboat heading at 4mph towards a weir, I suspect it will set.

 

As for the ability to stow flat, derided earlier in the thread, 

 

I would have thought that the ability to be able to store an emergency anchor somewhere handy was highly preferable to some odd shaped thing stuck in a locker somewhere, giver the absence of a dedicated bow roller on most canal boats.

 

 

 

 

 

Have you done much anchoring in either Sea or Fresh water ?

 

If not - try it, you might be surprised.

[rasputin]

Only been sailing on the sea for 20 years, not marina hopping.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, rasputin said:

Only been sailing on the sea for 20 years,

Ah, a bit like the Marie Celeste.

So you have never actually anchored then ?

[rasputin]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ah, a bit like the Marie Celeste.

So you have never actually anchored then ?

why the condescending tone?

 

Yes I have anchored quite a bit on my own boats and other peoples, using a variety of anchors.

[robtheplod]

Thanks for all the really interesting replies, especially on Anchors!

 

As a narrowboater I hope to never use one, but i'm wondering is there a best way to test/get familiar with it?  I'm guessing not to be in the middle of the Thames, but where would be a good place where it can be deployed safely - i'm assuming it needs to be on a river with a current?

[Dr Bob]

25 minutes ago, rasputin said:

why the condescending tone?

 

Yes I have anchored quite a bit on my own boats and other peoples, using a variety of anchors.

....and what you find is that not many anchors will set when thrown overboard moving at 4 knts. 

[rasputin]

19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

....and what you find is that not many anchors will set when thrown overboard moving at 4 knts. 

No, What I have found I put in my earlier post, 

 

A Danforth will set if dropped in while moving, it will be difficult to set if dropped in while stationary, Have you tried?

 

[Dr Bob]

35 minutes ago, rasputin said:

No, What I have found I put in my earlier post, 

 

A Danforth will set if dropped in while moving, it will be difficult to set if dropped in while stationary, Have you tried?

 

Not with a Danforth.

I have used delta's and Rocnas extensively. Neither will set well (maybe one in five ) when moving - it happens a lot in the med when the wind changes direction and you try to reset without starting the engine. Rocnas are one of the best setting anchors. Few people who used anchors a lot rated Danforths which mirrors the performance data Alan provided. 

We sailed in Scotland for years and then lived on a 40ft sloop for 3 years sailing from the UK to the med and are both yachtmaster qualified so we do have some experience of anchoring.

It is bl**dy difficult to chuck an anchor overboard at 4 knts and expect the anchor to bite. Storage considerations are secondary. That anchor has to dig in. 

As I said before, the best mitigation is to avoid the situation all together. In a lumpy water boat you would normally never go near a situation where you would be swept onto a weir (or lee shore) if the engine failed...and we always had our sails as a back up. Assessing risk was a big part of sailing. Lack of knowledge of anchors makes it difficult for your average canal boaters to asses the risks of rivers in flood.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Dr Bob

[Guest]

1 hour ago, rasputin said:

why the condescending tone?

Well, speaking as an impartial observer I would say the condescending tone started in post #38 (your post). 

 

Just sayin. ?

[rasputin]

34 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Not with a Danforth.

I have used delta's and Rocnas extensively. Neither will set well (maybe one in five ) when moving - it happens a lot in the med when the wind changes direction and you try to reset without starting the engine. Rocnas are one of the best setting anchors. Few people who used anchors a lot rated Danforths which mirrors the performance data Alan provided. 

We sailed in Scotland for years and then lived on a 40ft sloop for 3 years sailing from the UK to the med and are both yachtmaster qualified so we do have some experience of anchoring.

It is bl**dy difficult to chuck an anchor overboard at 4 knts and expect the anchor to bite. Storage considerations are secondary. That anchor has to dig in. 

As I said before, the best mitigation is to avoid the situation all together. In a lumpy water boat you would normally never go near a situation where you would be swept onto a weir (or lee shore) if the engine failed...and we always had our sails as a back up. Assessing risk was a big part of sailing. Lack of knowledge of anchors makes it difficult for your average canal boaters to asses the risks of rivers in flood.

I am v happy to agree that Danfoths are a pain to reset due to tide or wind change, but that's not an issue here,

 

I am also happy to agree that Rocnas etc are great anchors.

 

I have not had a problem setting any of my Danforths

 

Where do you stow your Rocna on your canal boat?

[IanD]

Not wanting to further stir up the mud on the relative merits of different anchors in setting/holding power, I'd have thought that there's a crucial difference between a narrowboat and most boat anchor applications -- it's only likely to be needed in an emergency which by definition is unexpected. In this case having a fantastic anchor which has to be stored dismantled like the one in the photo further up (because there's nowhere on the boat to fit it assembled) is of little use, unless you have the foresight -- before the unexpected disaster -- to have got it out and put it together.

 

It's the same as the smartphone camera vs. digital SLR debate -- there's no doubt which takes better pictures, but the best camera is the one you have with you when the unexpected photo-worthy event happens -- a great camera sitting at home is useless.

 

Of course you can say "you should assemble the (Rocna, whatever...) whenever you're going into any circumstance where it might be needed" but human nature is generally not like this, especially for people who spend most of their time on canals and little on rivers. For most people in this situation it's probably better to have an anchor like a Danforth that can be stored assembled and attached to chain/cable, ready and waiting to be chucked overboard in an emergency than one which they're still assembling -- assuming to know how to do this -- as the boat goes over a weir.

 

Experienced mariners may disagree (and they're much more likely to anticipate the possible problem and have the anchor assembled and ready for action), but such people are in a tiny minority on the canals, and expecting most people to have their expertise and foresight is unreasonable...

[Midnight]

10 hours ago, rasputin said:

The Danforth is difficult to set, I suspect that this is due to ineptitude. If the anchor is thrown over the side with tens of m of chain and the boat is put in reverse, it is v likely to drag along the seabed, if it is dropped over the bow of a narrowboat heading at 4mph towards a weir, I suspect it will set.

 

Very possibly! Several years ago while travelling on a friend's boat down the Yorkshire Ouse the engine stalled leaving us drifting on the ebb tide. We threw the anchor over from the stern and can say with absolute confidence it did nothing and we eventually came to a stop among some willows on the next bend. Fortunately it wasn't one of those fast spring tides so no danger but thinking of all the possibilities sends shivers down my spine.