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First visit in 2 months, some questions...


robtheplod

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14 minutes ago, Jonkx said:

Coupd we rename this thread 'Discussion on Anchors'

Why? The OP asked a number of questions after visiting his boat. One of them was "

  •  
  • Investigated the anchor. We've a 16KG Danforth Anchor with 7m of chain and 7m of Warp - does this seem ok for a 58ft boat?

 

Surely that is what some people are attempting to discuss,  and in some cases provide answers for  this specific question, so the thread is bang on topic.

 

My slight beef is that some points of view are far too dogmatic and forget that we don't actually have ( or me anyway) any actual knowledge of the expertise both of the OP and also of most  of the responders., so a little more consideration of the other chaps point of view might no go amiss!:cheers:

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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More independent testing (by Motor Boat Monthly Magazine)

 

The Danforth is the "Performance 20" (3rd from the left)

I have the full Pdf document outlining the individual tests and results but the forum software does not allow Pdf's to be posted

 

You don't need to rely on the experience of a couple of 'blokes on the internet' when there is a plethora of information from reputable sources.

 

 

Screenshot (174).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I find it quite interesting that peeps are saying the experts know what they are doing but your average 'Jo' doesn't, so don't complicate it and just go with a cheap Danforth, cause it may work! 

My experience with anchors says that anything deployed from a narrowboat floating out of control down a fast flowing river is likely not to set SO DONT BE THERE. I guess survival of the fittest will eventually weed out those who aren't prepared to be sensible.

Narrowboating on canals is a piece of p!ss. Narrowboating on fast flowing rivers with an inch of water in the bottom of your diesel tank along with all the other crap in there is not. Your average 'Jo' should respect this and only venture out if he has assessed the risks and done something to mitigate them. "I think I have an anchor so I should be fine" is not the right answer.

The OP who asked the question now has his answer. Loads of anchors to choose from. Very few likely to work apart for a Danforth that will alway set (?). Far better never to need one. Stay on the canals if you are not prepared to do the risk assessment.

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48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

More independent testing (by Motor Boat Monthly Magazine)

 

The Danforth is the "Performance 20" (3rd from the left)

I have the full Pdf document outlining the individual tests and results but the forum software does not allow Pdf's to be posted

 

You don't need to rely on the experience of a couple of 'blokes on the internet' when there is a plethora of information from reputable sources.

 

 

Screenshot (174).png

Alan, the dispute is not about the technical issues -- nobody would try and argue that the Danforth is an excellent anchor, because it isn't.

 

But people coming back and saying things like "any sailor would prepare..." is still missing the point entirely -- yes you would, because you're an experienced sailor who is aware of the risks (and things like anchor performance). Regardless of the OP's experience -- we don't know if he's like you, or hasn't got a clue, or is somewhere in between -- people on narrowboats are very like drivers, or people in many other walks of life, they aren't aware of or underestimate risks, and if something is a pain to do (like assembling an anchor) they're less likely to do it and more likely to die as a result.

 

So for most people a not-very-good anchor that is ready-to-use in times of need is better than a great anchor that would be available if only they'd spent the time and effort to put it together. It's why cars are fitted with lap-and-shoulder seatbelts (or lap only in some countries) instead of full harnesses which are much more expensive and cumbersome to put on.

 

I'm not saying that people with more experience or risk awareness have to use a Danforth, they can take the time and use a better one and be safer as a result. But trying to persuade other less-well-educated (in safety) people to behave more safely like you -- seatbelts, drink-driving, smoking -- has always been a losing battle, because they don't see why they should have to do what you want them to do.

 

The OP can decide which he prefers without disclosing which category of sailor he falls into... ?

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why would it be sitting 'in bits in the bottom of a locker' ?

 

Its called preparation, just like checking the engine each morning before setting off, (looking for oil leaks, loose fan belt etc)

Its just like checking you have enough fuel to get you to the next place where you can fill up

Similarly with water and toilet tanks.

 

Don't tell me that boaters don't do this.

 

You know you will be going on a River many hours in advance so its not a problem to get it out, connect it up to the chain and sit it on a bit of carpet either in the well deck or on the roof and its ready to deploy in the time it takes you to get to the bow.

When I was single handed on the NB I'd run the chain back from the bow and have the anchor in a bucket next to the helm, if it was needed it was instantly available.

 

It is not all about being an 'experienced sailor' its about learning from experienced sailors, preparation and managing your own, and families risks.

If an individual decides to use a 'mud-weight' as an anchor that is entirely their choice.

I'm telling you that many boaters -- especially hire boaters who are most likely to run into trouble -- don't do this.

 

If they did there would be far fewer breakdowns and sinkings on the canals. I doubt if one hire boater in ten checks fan belts or looks for oil leaks, at best they might check the cooling water and oil levels -- but after a couple of days with no change they'll stop doing that too.

 

Much as you might like to think the opposite, they're not interested in learning from experienced sailors, they're interested in having a good time on holiday.

 

Now you could say that anyone reading this forum is more likely to be interested in the technical qualities of anchors and you'd be right, and they're more likely to want something better than a Danforth for very good reasons, and the information you've provided will help them do this. This doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of boaters who are less painstaking (and who probably don't read this forum) it's a good choice...

Edited by IanD
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We have a danforth. Stows away nicely in the stbd well deck locker. We get it out when we might need it and lay it at the front of the welldeck, anchor on top of chain on top of rope, with other end of rope tied on(!). But we get it out rarely because we rarely on waters where we could need it. So I don’t feel the need to have the best anchor at any cost - it is a matter of probabilities and risk vs reward etc.

 

Yes there are a lot of better anchors than a Danforth no doubt, because they are newer designs - no point in designing and manufacturing a new anchor if is no better than what is there already! But a danforth is adequate bearing in mind we hope to never need it. At worst, it will significantly slow our pace towards a weir / bridge / overhanging trees etc. It may or may not hold, depending on groundspeed when it was deployed, depth, flow rate and the nature of the river bed. That is the compromise for having something cheap and easy to live with for 99% of the time when we could not feasibly need it and hopefully 100% of the time because we will never actually need it!

 

Oh and I have had a sleepless night at anchor on a yacht in the BVI with an onshore breeze because the anchor, which had been fine every other time, refused to hold (rocky bottom probably), so I know how important a good anchor is for a seagoing boat.

Edited by nicknorman
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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm telling you that many boaters -- especially hire boaters who are most likely to run into trouble -- don't do this.

 

If they did there would be far fewer breakdowns and sinkings on the canals. I doubt if one hire boater in ten checks fan belts or looks for oil leaks, at best they might check the cooling water level -- but after a couple of days with no change they'll stop doing that too.

 

Much as you might like to think the opposite, they're not interested in learning from experienced sailors, they're interested in having a good time on holiday.

 

Now you could say that anyone reading this forum is more likely to be interested in the technical qualities of anchors and you'd be right, and they're more likely to want something better than a Danforth for very good reasons, and the information you've provided will help them do this. This doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of boaters who are less painstaking (and who probably don't read this forum) it's a good choice...

Hire boaters will have what the hirer gives them in my experience.

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Just now, frahkn said:

Hire boaters will have what the hirer gives them in my experience.

Of course they will. I'm explaining why the hirer is likely to have fitted a Danforth instead of something better but less convenient, because it's actually the right choice for their customers.

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

Very few likely to work apart for a Danforth that will alway set (?). 

Thats a hell of a misquote

 

And if that's how you read my post it is no wonder you are objecting to it,

 

 

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well I do have some experience of someone losing his engine and trying to anchor up before he went over Cromwell weir (you know - the big one where 11 soldiers dies when their boat went over).

 

He lost his engine on leaving the mooring pontoon, the current got him and he immediately dropped his Danforth anchor, it must have dragged about 500 yards and 50-100 yards just before he went over the weir it set and was very slowly dragging just slow enough for us to be able to go alongside and get a rope aboard and subsequently tow him back to Kings Marina.

 

Not an anchor problem but what happens around weirs.

The time when a boat went over the weir at Stoke Bardolph,. Before it went over the weir the steerers wife fell off, & was hanging on over the side, he could either try and steer into the side or switch off the engine, he could not reach to switch off the engine and steer, but if he kept the prop turning his wife would be diced. The boat, wife and steerer went over the weir and long-story-short, all three survived, the boat rolled over 360 as it went under the Dolphins & was swept into the bushes / trees below the weir. C&RT sent a steerer to take the boat into Kings Marina. I don't think they ever used it again and it was sold a few weeks later.

 

They blamed 'people' for not stopping them going when the river was running 'a bit fast'.

As I'm sure you are aware that is not a proper test

 

 

What would another anchor done in the same situation. Was the anchor the right weight for the boat. Was there the correct chain weight and length etc. There are too many unknowns for you to make the assumption that a Danforth anchor is useless in this situation.

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10 minutes ago, rasputin said:

What would another anchor done in the same situation.

The only way to answer that would be to do comparative testing of a range of anchors and subject them each to a range of different ground conditions and see how they each performed in a number of different characteristics, say Speed of set, (in hard and soft ground), strength, pull-out force etc. etc.

 

Hang on ............…. that has already been done and the various anchors have been rated.

 

Have to see if I can find any of the test result tables for your consideration.

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22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The only way to answer that would be to do comparative testing of a range of anchors and subject them each to a range of different ground conditions and see how they each performed in a number of different characteristics, say Speed of set, (in hard and soft ground), strength, pull-out force etc. etc.

 

Hang on ............…. that has already been done and the various anchors have been rated.

 

Have to see if I can find any of the test result tables for your consideration.

Yes but my original point included the fact that this is an unusual situation I have seen plenty of people fail to set a Danforth successfully, I have also failed when using the wrong method, My method has been successful for me and seems to imitate the scenario we have here. 

 

Once a Danforth is being dragged on a seabed it is unlikely that it will set,

 

I suspect that this is the method used by the anchor tests that you have highlighted

 

 

Edited by rasputin
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14 minutes ago, rasputin said:

Yes but my original point included the fact that this is an unusual situation I have seen plenty of people fail to set a Danforth successfully, I have also failed when using the wrong method, My method has been successful for me and seems to imitate the scenario we have here. 

 

Once a Danforth is being dragged on a seabed it is unlikely that it will set,

 

I suspect that this is the method used by the anchor tests that you have highlighted

 

 

 

My boat is fitted with a Danforth anchor, which is unused, except for a couple of practice runs, as we only travel on rivers when there is little flow.

 

However I am interested in the deployment method you use as it seems to be a reliable deployment method.

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Its just about hitting the tip on the seabed then moving backwards, so that the tip can start to dig in before the shaft lies on the seabed.

 

so ensure you are moving before it hits

 

in the senario that you are heading towards a weir you are already moving with respects to the riverbed so as long as you don't feed it out too fast it should work , I know easier said than done on a panicking boat heading towards  a weir.

 

and how you manage to accomplish this safety from the back of a narrowboat is anybody's guess.

 

On the anchor tests I have seen the anchor chain is payed out to fast ending up with the danforth flat on the seabed hoping it will dig in

 

 

Hopefully as a result of this thread some river travellers will be out there practising, Which cant be a bad thing and it would be nice to see some results back on the forum.

 

Something I have spent several hours doing on my seaboats as in my situation good anchoring was as important as good sailing

 

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7 hours ago, IanD said:

I'm telling you that many boaters -- especially hire boaters who are most likely to run into trouble -- don't do this.

 

If they did there would be far fewer breakdowns and sinkings on the canals. I doubt if one hire boater in ten checks fan belts or looks for oil leaks, at best they might check the cooling water and oil levels -- but after a couple of days with no change they'll stop doing that too.

 

Much as you might like to think the opposite, they're not interested in learning from experienced sailors, they're interested in having a good time on holiday.

 

Now you could say that anyone reading this forum is more likely to be interested in the technical qualities of anchors and you'd be right, and they're more likely to want something better than a Danforth for very good reasons, and the information you've provided will help them do this. This doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of boaters who are less painstaking (and who probably don't read this forum) it's a good choice...

And lots of modern boaters only want a floating cottage and have no interest in what makes it move or stop, so long as when they turn the key and push the leaver forward the boat goes, thats end of story

6 hours ago, rasputin said:

As I'm sure you are aware that is not a proper test

 

 

What would another anchor done in the same situation. Was the anchor the right weight for the boat. Was there the correct chain weight and length etc. There are too many unknowns for you to make the assumption that a Danforth anchor is useless in this situation.

I have never seen any tried and tested info on the size of anchor on a 18 ton narrowboat for a river, Loads of info for 7 ton boats in different sea states and wid conditions

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18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

To combine the answers to several postings :

 

It takes 5 minutes maximum (a couple of bolts tightened with a spanner) to assemble the Mason / Mantus type anchors. They can be stored flat in a locker for the "99%" of the time you spend on a canal - you will never need an anchor, if you breakdown you can pole to the side, or even get off and 'walk'.

 

You don't just 'suddenly' find yourself on a River, you surely have plenty of time to plan and can spare 5 minutes as you empty the last canal lock.

 

Store the assembled anchor on the roof or in the well deck.

 

There is no use having an anchor that is unsuitable, it just gives a false sense of security. Surely it is better to have one that has a high percentage chance of doing what you want it to do and act as an emergency brake.

 

There is no earthly reason why you shouldn't / couldn't practice, LOWER the anchor over the side and as al little 'slack' develops in the chain engage reverse slowly feeding the chain out, when the anchor bites (sets) you will feel it jolt thru the boat, pay out a little more until you have 3 - 5 times depth and tie it off.

 

It is advisable not to rely on your T-Stud as this has been known to snap off due the high shock-load. Ideally mount a cleat / ring with a large, thick steel backing plate so as to spread the load.

 

I fell into the trap when I started using a NB on the River and bought a 15kg Danforth - being used to anchoring the 'lumpy water boats. with the likes of CQR and Bruce anchors I had no reservations about deploying or recovery.

It was an absolute waste of space. It did nothing but bounce along the bottom as I went in reverse. Nuff said

 

 

I still have a Bruce on the Cruiser, and the Kedge is also a Bruce.

 

 

20191014_130108.jpg

20191014_130149.jpg

I would not use a s/s shackle on an anchor, but a Certified bow shackle with green pin, as big as possible. S/S might be OK or it might fracture ime.

PS, I understood the T thingy was fairly strong if properly fixed [ie by a relable NB boatbuilder. I met someone who had his T - thingy ripped out in a lock, and put two cleats on the well deck, on the gunnels, I worried that I'd pull the gunnels off, and was thinking about usng the f'ard well deck bulkhead, which should be welded to the hull. Not sure if anyone agrees? Should I ask the boatbuilder?

PPS if you are going to practice setting an anchor, best to use a tripping line, which will let you lift [upset] the anchor "the wrong way", makes you look less like an idiot when you find your test of anchor setting turns in to an undignified tug of war.

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I would not use a s/s shackle on an anchor,

The shackle has the same rating as the chain, but apart from using the 'lunch-hook' we have never NEEDED to anchor the cruiser as we tend to use that for Marina hopping.

 

The Cat which is category A and which we do regularly anchor has an anchor-swivel which is a swivel and shackle combined (and cost more than a Danforth anchor)

 

See the source image

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16 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I find it quite interesting that peeps are saying the experts know what they are doing but your average 'Jo' doesn't, so don't complicate it and just go with a cheap Danforth, cause it may work! 

My experience with anchors says that anything deployed from a narrowboat floating out of control down a fast flowing river is likely not to set SO DONT BE THERE. I guess survival of the fittest will eventually weed out those who aren't prepared to be sensible.

Narrowboating on canals is a piece of p!ss. Narrowboating on fast flowing rivers with an inch of water in the bottom of your diesel tank along with all the other crap in there is not. Your average 'Jo' should respect this and only venture out if he has assessed the risks and done something to mitigate them. "I think I have an anchor so I should be fine" is not the right answer.

The OP who asked the question now has his answer. Loads of anchors to choose from. Very few likely to work apart for a Danforth that will almost NEVER SET WHEN REQUIRED (?).

Ammended that for the benefit of OP !

I ressemble that "average Jo" suggestion, I have always avoided being average!

Thank you.

jo

Edited by LadyG
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18 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I find it quite interesting that peeps are saying the experts know what they are doing but your average 'Jo' doesn't, so don't complicate it and just go with a cheap Danforth, cause it may work! 

My experience with anchors says that anything deployed from a narrowboat floating out of control down a fast flowing river is likely not to set SO DONT BE THERE. I guess survival of the fittest will eventually weed out those who aren't prepared to be sensible.

Narrowboating on canals is a piece of p!ss. Narrowboating on fast flowing rivers with an inch of water in the bottom of your diesel tank along with all the other crap in there is not. Your average 'Jo' should respect this and only venture out if he has assessed the risks and done something to mitigate them. "I think I have an anchor so I should be fine" is not the right answer.

The OP who asked the question now has his answer. Loads of anchors to choose from. Very few likely to work apart for a Danforth that will alway set (?). Far better never to need one. Stay on the canals if you are not prepared to do the risk assessment.

I agree totally with these comments. I would also like to ask how people are defining a so called "expert"? Like many others on here I have been boating on the inland waters - mainly canals but with some rivers - for many years, but I wouldn't class myself as an "expert" - just someone who has his own views reached after many years in another life where anchors are used on a daily basis. If offering advice to others I would hope to put that advice in such a way that allows for other opinions to be aired. I would also like to make the point that you cannot buy safety by spending large sums on the shiniest and newest piece of kit on the market, without educating yourself on the subject, and personally, I think this forum is not the best place to get definitive advice; rather it allows for broad views to be aired and then giving the questioner the opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

 

Anchors and anchoring is a subject which is frequently debated on this forum but the debate never reaches a conclusion, and I'm not surprised because there is no magic solution. :cheers:

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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1 hour ago, howardang said:

I would also like to make the point that you cannot buy safety by spending large sums on the shiniest and newest piece of kit on the market, without educating yourself on the subject

Very true - you cannot even buy a telephone now without reading the 1000 page 'online' owners manual (On line because it is now so big and cumbersome it is not practical to print it)

As things get more complex it takes time and effort to understand how they work.

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5 hours ago, LadyG said:

I would not use a s/s shackle on an anchor, but a Certified bow shackle with green pin, as big as possible. S/S might be OK or it might fracture ime.

PS, I understood the T thingy was fairly strong if properly fixed [ie by a relable NB boatbuilder. I met someone who had his T - thingy ripped out in a lock, and put two cleats on the well deck, on the gunnels, I worried that I'd pull the gunnels off, and was thinking about usng the f'ard well deck bulkhead, which should be welded to the hull. Not sure if anyone agrees? Should I ask the boatbuilder?

PPS if you are going to practice setting an anchor, best to use a tripping line, which will let you lift [upset] the anchor "the wrong way", makes you look less like an idiot when you find your test of anchor setting turns in to an undignified tug of war.

How can it rip anything off it its not going to set?

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3 hours ago, howardang said:

I would also like to make the point that you cannot buy safety by spending large sums on the shiniest and newest piece of kit on the market, without educating yourself on the subject, and personally, I think this forum is not the best place to get definitive advice; rather it allows for broad views to be aired and then giving the questioner the opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

 

Anchors and anchoring is a subject which is frequently debated on this forum but the debate never reaches a conclusion, and I'm not surprised because there is no magic solution. :cheers:

I would tend to agree, but would add that it doesn't too take much research to identify that "New Generation" anchors are better at setting and holding, than "old Generation" anchors, on the whole. You can narrow these down to 4 or 5 quite easily, and then take a view, possibly based on cost, weight, size, brand etc..

 

In addition, "here" is not necessarily a "bad" place to start. Alan, (de Enfield), has provided some quite comprehensive info, and I have provided my conclusion of a decade ago.... 

 

It is entirely possible that, having identified the New Gen anchor of choice, or the 4 or 5 on the short list, you might decide against any of them based on price. In that case you might look at the "best" of the older generations within budget.

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