First visit in 2 months, some questions...

[robtheplod]

Hi All

 

Had our first visit to Water Lily since the lockdown to check her over. All seems well in bilges/engine bay (started first time and no pools!) - only casualty was something furry in the fridge! -  so took the time to go through some other bits I've been meaning to look into and wonder on your opinions??

 

• Our fender fittings are rusty - probably should have been stainless steel but Im thinking maybe cable ties might be better?  no rusting plus they will snap off rather than damage anything?  When not in use I just rest these on the gunnel so don't need the ability to take off.... good/bad idea??
•  
• We've all got lockdown hair, but Lily seems to have rather a lot - I'm sure more than other boats next door... is this an indicator of something or am I being paranoid??
•  
• Investigated the anchor. We've a 16KG Danforth Anchor with 7m of chain and 7m of Warp - does this seem ok for a 58ft boat?
•  
• I found an odd green plastic 'tool' of some description in the gas locker, can anyone identify it?

 

thanks!!

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by robtheplod

[Alan de Enfield]

The chain and warp is fine for most situations (unless on a very deep river) but I'd suggest getting an anchor that is likely to work rather than one that is bought because it folds flat to make easy storage on a NB.

 

Danforth anchors are notoriously difficult to 'set' and can take 'miles' of dragging before the flukes start to dig in.

On a NB you will (probably) only be deploying your anchor in an emergency, (ie, engine failure 200 yards before a weir) and you need to  deploy, set and hold 1st time, every time.

 

 

An interesting article :

 

The Danforth is in essence an improved version of the 19^th century Admiralty pattern and stockless variations thereupon. Superior steels and economical access to them permitted radical changes to the age-old designs, but the Danforth does not represent a clean break away from these types. It offers better holding power, and attempts to dampen the rotating impulse (which results from the presence of more than one fluke) by employment of several tricks including the retainment of a dedicated stock (located in front of the flukes rather than at the end of the shank). However, rooted in its past as a symmetrical anchor, it still suffers from a number of setting and behavioral issues. Because the flukes lie flat on the seabed before setting, the process of encouraging it to set depends on the tip of a fluke achieving an initial ‘bite’ – and on hard sand or grassy seabeds, this is not a given. It can skate along the surface without setting at all. This initial setting issue then implies other problems later.

Some manufacturers of the type even admit to this problem, advising users to set the anchor at a very short scope in order to lift the shank and thus exert a vertical pull on the crown of the anchor, the hope being that the flukes will then be angled downward. This tacit admission that the anchor will not set reliably at sensible scopes must inform its consideration as a general purpose anchor required to handle wind veers, changing depths with tides, and the myriad of other real world ramifications.

The Danforth types’ behavioral problems include an inability to reliably handle force veers. Rather than remain buried when a sideways or reversed pull is applied, they tend to twist and pull out. Similarly, if the anchor is dragged once set (e.g. in soft mud), it has a strong tendency to trip on one fluke or the other, rolling and again popping out. Once this has happened, the anchor is unlikely to re-set itself.

There are a number of other issues, including a reduced strength and durability. Even with good quality construction and high tensile steels or aluminium alloys, the geometry of the design does not lend itself to a rugged build. The flukes are flat plates with little reinforcement possible, and the tips are easily damaged. Furthermore, if the force on the anchor is unbalanced, e.g. if one fluke gets stuck but not the other, it is very easily bent and destroyed. Finally, the aforementioned issue with accepting changes in the direction of pull has consequences should the anchor be very well set in hard ground such as clay. The large flukes may be sufficiently well stuck that the shank bends before the anchor will re-align itself, a common mode of failure. Such a fragile anchor so vulnerable to destruction in the course of normal usage has little to commend it to the role of a vessel’s primary anchor.

Because the Danforth types are flat, they tend to be easily stowed, and are therefore popular secondary anchors. Additionally, they do without doubt hold well in simple circumstances, and so are reasonable solutions for secondary anchors (to be used where the anchor may be set once and not expected to handle more than a unidirectional pull). Nonetheless, there are other modern solutions which are superior for this purpose and avoid the drawbacks, including the Spade which has a demountable shank and is also available in aluminium – indeed the alloy version has been independently tested to out-perform the best aluminium Danforths on a weight-for-weight basis.

[nicknorman]

I would simply get rid of those small side pipe fenders. They don’t do any good, are not necessary, and tend to get ripped off in locks creating a potential problem for other boaters. Quite anti-social in fact.

 

Fenders are for mooring, not to compensate for bad driving!

Edited May 17, 2020 by nicknorman

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I would simply get rid of those small side pipe fenders. They don’t do any good, are not necessary, and tend to get ripped off in locks creating a potential problem for other boaters. Quite anti-social in fact.

 

Fenders are for mooring, not to compensate for bad driving!

Seconded.

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I would simply get rid of those small side pipe fenders. They don’t do any good, are not necessary, and tend to get ripped off in locks creating a potential problem for other boaters. Quite anti-social in fact.

And a distinct safety hazard if you leave them resting on the gunwales.

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I would simply get rid of those small side pipe fenders. They don’t do any good, are not necessary, and tend to get ripped off in locks creating a potential problem for other boaters. Quite anti-social in fact.

 

Fenders are for mooring, not to compensate for bad driving!

Yep you are meant to lift the fenders up for locks which is not easy when attached like that.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

Yep you are meant to lift the fenders up for locks which is not easy when attached like that.

Actualy old boy they should be lifted at all times when underway 

[twbm]

Thirded re the fenders. 

 

The weed is quite prolific, but I shouldn't worry about it ... an hour with a garden hoe will shift most of it,  and the rest will come off as you cruise and rub the bottom and sides.  It's really not worth spending a fortune on antifoul paint on a canal boat. 

 

No idea really re the green tool (good name for an unpopular superhero perhaps) - maybe for lifting mooring spikes?  

[robtheplod]

All noted re fenders thanks!!!

[LadyG]

I have a Mantus, with a Certifed bow shackle, and Certified chain

I bought 6.5 m Lofrans 10mm chain [clearance price]

I bought 11.4 Kg galvanised Mantus anchor ---- fastest setting anchor I could find.

2 x 11mm green pin bow shackle with 13mm pin

1 x 11 mm green pin D-shackle. with 13mm pin

£350 from Jimmy Green Marine.

They will advise on a balanced system.

I have 30m of anchorplait, with an eyelet rather than spliced to the chain. <£100

Cable ties could be used on the cut to prevent shackle pins unscrewing, Monel is the correct wire for real sailors!

Plus I have 30m of 18mm Marlow anchor plait. You could ask jimmy Green for advice, I have lots of ropes, from salty water days. Most would hold the narrowboat. It depends if you are only going on the usual canals, with limited hazards, others will advise. Just don't buy cheap blue plastic polypropylene stuff, learn to tie a bowline, and a round turn and two half hitches.

 

PS Your tackle would snap at that tiny galvanised  D - shackle aka "the weakest link" lol, its a joke!

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by LadyG

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I have a Mantus, with a Certifed bow shackle, and Certified chain plus 30m of Marlow anchor plait.

I bought 6.5 m Lofrans 10mm chain [clearance price]

I bought 11.4 Kg galvanised Mantus anchor ---- fastest setting anchor I could find.

2 x 11mm green pin bow shackle with 13mm pin

1 x 11 mm green pin D-shackle. 

Cable ties could be used on th cut to prevent shackle pins unscrewing, Monel is the correct wire for real sailors!

 

PS Your tackle would snap at that tiny galvanised  D - shackle aka "the weakest link" lol, its a joke!

 

Horses for courses - sea going needs are not the same as flat water needs.

[Ex Brummie]

The green 'tool' is used to hold several supermarket bags. Thread it through the handles and put the spade end through the slot. It is easier to carry them than the individual plastic finger cutting handles.

I'm assuming that it is flexible, we've something similar.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ex Brummie

[Tonka]

If you must hang side fenders then the best thing for the job is sold by tradline who are based at Braunston and they are rope shackles

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Horses for courses - sea going needs are not the same as flat water needs.

Very true - 'flat water' use can be very demanding, requiring the anchor to instantly set and to take the shock loading of 20+ tons of NB being pulled to an almost instant stop.

 

Lumpy water boaters do not use the anchor as a brake.

Lumpy water boaters generally plan to anchor, will choose a suitable place, lower the anchor and as it hits the bottom will slowly pay out more chain whilst engaging reverse to help to set the anchor properly.

If it doesn't set 1st time, you can haul it back in motor forward and repeat the operation.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[zenataomm]

I have given your photos due scrutinisation. 

As a result your boat is considered in polite circles to be an insurance write off.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I bought 11.4 Kg galvanised Mantus anchor ---- fastest setting anchor I could find.

 

We also went for the Mantus - about the best there is for Lumpy water use, but Very expensive, connected to a chain swivel and 60 metres of 10mm chain

 

 

[Dr Bob]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Very true - 'flat water' use can be very demanding, requiring the anchor to instantly set and to take the shock loading of 20+ tons of NB being pulled to an almost instant stop.

 

Lumpy water boaters do not use the anchor as a brake.

Lumpy water boaters generally plan to anchor, will choose a suitable place, lower the anchor and as it hits the bottom will slowly pay out more chain whilst engaging reverse to help to set the anchor properly.

If it doesn't set 1st time, you can haul it back in motor forward and repeat the operation.

 

 

 

Quite agree. We had a 25Kg Delta on our lumpy water boat. Not the easiest to set and pretty useless if trying to set when the sea bed is getting deeper ie you are moving away from shore.

The only need for an anchor on a NB is in an emergency and it must set first time. If near a river bank but being pulled towards the centre, the bed is getting deeper and no chance to set (unless snagged). As the river gets shallower on the other side then the anchor is going up hill and will far more easily set.

As its unlikely you will recover your anchor, peeps wont want to spend £500 plus on a Mantus or a Rocna (the best).

The best answer is dont get yourself in a position where you need to deploy your anchor!

We spent 3 years living aboard and anchoring many many times. I am still crap at anchoring. God help anyone who has to do it first time in an emergency!

[robtheplod]

48 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

I have given your photos due scrutinisation. 

As a result your boat is considered in polite circles to be an insurance write off.

 

 

 

oh dear worse than I thought then? 

[Tesla]

51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Very true - 'flat water' use can be very demanding, requiring the anchor to instantly set and to take the shock loading of 20+ tons of NB being pulled to an almost instant stop.

 

Lumpy water boaters do not use the anchor as a brake.

Lumpy water boaters generally plan to anchor, will choose a suitable place, lower the anchor and as it hits the bottom will slowly pay out more chain whilst engaging reverse to help to set the anchor properly.

If it doesn't set 1st time, you can haul it back in motor forward and repeat the operation.

 

 

 

Interesting. What is the source of this chart Alan? I have assumed That the Rocha was the mutts.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The weed on the hull shows that the ducks have been on lock down somewhere else. Now that they are able to travel to their second home around your boat it will give them something to eat. You aren't supposed to sleep on board overnight yet, so the rat a tat tat of their pecking in the early hours of the morning won't wake you up. Much cheaper than shop bought duck food. Locally sourced and organic too. ?

The fenders attached to the gunwale thing has been torn to shreds by other posters already, but I thought I'd add my bit. When I first got this boat and on its first trip I decked it out with fenders attached to the gunwale eyes with old retired climbing carabiners once I was on to the wide locks of the Trent and Mersey. Thought the krabs would make them easy to remove. Unfortunately I was right! The action of rubbing along the lock sides coming in unclipped every one of the fenders and I lost the lot. Live and learn. I now hang fenders with long ropes from the hand rail while mooring only.

 

Jen

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Detling]

Remember lumpy water boats tend to have anchor winches either manual or nowadays electric/hydraulic to allow one person to manage long lengths of chain connected to a big lump of anchor.  Most narrowboats have only the crew or maybe the skipper, so practicing anchoring wll often mean having to buy a new one, because you can't get the old one back.  On a canal or slow river bed the bottom is likely to be mud and Danforths work fine, on a fast flowing river with gravel, a lot of anchors will struggle. Above a weir on a river there will usually be mud, below may be gravel. I would not expect to have a rocky bottom on inland waterways.

[Alan de Enfield]

52 minutes ago, Tesla said:

Interesting. What is the source of this chart Alan? I have assumed That the Rocha was the mutts.

I'm not sure on the source - I know PBO ran a series of articles on anchor development.

 

I don't think there is really much (any) difference between the Rocna and the Mantus, and the Manson, all minute variations on a theme.

It is the earlier generation anchors (Fishermans, Danforth and CQR) that really struggle in comparison trials.

 

I know I keep 'banging on' but the Danforth is usually chosen for Inland waterways use, because it is cheap and it folds flat for storage, when the criteria should be "what will set 1st time and which offers good holding power once set"

 

Our Rivers ;bottoms' vary considerably from very hard clay, to loose 'ooze' to gravel so ideally you carry an anchor to suit your particular River, howeve it is more practical to find the best 'general ground' which is invariably one of the latest generation anchors.

 

Lloyds Register of Shipping have had to introduce a new 'Anchor Holding' rating called UHHP (Ultra High Holding Power) to categorise these new generation anchors.

 

Danforth fail miserably in the former, but well in the second, in virtually every test you can find.

 

 

 

 

Of course the other critical factor is how the anchor is deployed and the length of scope

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Neil2]

 

18 minutes ago, Detling said:

Remember lumpy water boats tend to have anchor winches either manual or nowadays electric/hydraulic to allow one person to manage long lengths of chain connected to a big lump of anchor.  Most narrowboats have only the crew or maybe the skipper, so practicing anchoring wll often mean having to buy a new one, because you can't get the old one back.  On a canal or slow river bed the bottom is likely to be mud and Danforths work fine, on a fast flowing river with gravel, a lot of anchors will struggle. Above a weir on a river there will usually be mud, below may be gravel. I would not expect to have a rocky bottom on inland waterways.

The only time I have set an anchor was on a yacht some years ago, when it came to recovering it I asked the skipper where the winch was "no winch on this boat" he replied you do it by hand.  I was a lot younger and stronger then but jeez I thought I was going to pass out but I had to do it or risk being labelled a wimp.  But this was a 40 footer I thought, why no winch?  Oh, the skipper said, it's a French boat and they expect you'll be spending every night in a marina...

 

Must admit I've always taken the view that the sort of rivers you're likely to be navigating on a narrowboat a Danforth would be fine, so long as you've got plenty of chain, but reading this thread has made me reconsider.  So, there are a few experts here, my Sea Otter is 40' and about six tons in the water - what size of Rocna/Manton would you suggest and what length of chain/warp - or does it not matter what type of anchor you have?  I think from memory I have 10 metres of chain and 30 metres of 3 strand nylon which is probably a bit over the top.  

Edited May 17, 2020 by Neil2
spleting

[howardang]

57 minutes ago, Tesla said:

Interesting. What is the source of this chart Alan? I have assumed That the Rocha was the mutts.

For information, the chart can be found on the Mantus web site - linkbelow

 

https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-anchor-knowledgebase/anchor-choice/

 

Howard

[Tesla]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not sure on the source - I know PBO ran a series of articles on anchor development.

 

I don't think there is really much (any) difference between the Rocna and the Mantus, and the Manson, all minute variations on a theme.

It is the earlier generation anchors (Fishermans, Danforth and CQR) that really struggle in comparison trials.

 

I know I keep 'banging on' but the Danforth is usually chosen for Inland waterways use, because it is cheap and it folds flat for storage, when the criteria should be "what will set 1st time and which offers good holding power once set"

 

Our Rivers ;bottoms' vary considerably from very hard clay, to loose 'ooze' to gravel so ideally you carry an anchor to suit your particular River, howeve it is more practical to find the best 'general ground' which is invariably one of the latest generation anchors.

 

Lloyds Register of Shipping have had to introduce a new 'Anchor Holding' rating called UHHP (Ultra High Holding Power) to categorise these new generation anchors.

 

Danforth fail miserably in the former, but well in the second, in virtually every test you can find.

 

 

 

 

Of course the other critical factor is how the anchor is deployed and the length of scope

 

 

Great info, thanks.