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Responsibilities of marina during Covid restrictions


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5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

In many places ensuring that people do not sleep on their boats would mean ensuring that some people are made homeless. How does that help prevent the spread of covid-19? ?

We are not to stay away from home overnight; of course people can stay on a boat overnight if that is their main or only home.

Guess the problem is all those people living on leisure moorings with a declared residence elsewhere. Have we seen a wholesale exodus of these people from the marinas or have the owners / staff quietly told them to keep their heads down, ask no questions, make no waves and stay aboard as before? Even if the marina were inflexible and did say to people that they couldn't stay aboard on a leisure mooring, people wouldn't be made homeless. It's a boat, a moveable home and could leave for the duration.

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23 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Indeed, but when Johnson was asked what the new catchphrase "Stay Alert" meant he said it means "Use common sense". How that relates to the fact that it's presently possible to meet your mother and your father, but only one at a time unless you work for them, does suggest a weird interpretation of common sense at a higher level.

 

Tam

Maybe a work around is to be employed by your parents?

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12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

In many places ensuring that people do not sleep on their boats would mean ensuring that some people are made homeless. How does that help prevent the spread of covid-19? ?

People who genuinely live aboard full time are of course , permitted to continue to do so.

 

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11 hours ago, Neil2 said:

I, and many others, worry about what the police are not doing, such as investigating burglaries and prosecuting shoplifters

 

Not so long ago we were being told that the constabulary was dangerously under resourced, now they seem to have the time to drive up and down quiet mountain roads and deserted streets at night.  

 

Ever been on the receiving end of police harassment?  If you ever are, you will change your view.

I have been on the receiving end of police making flawed judgements, yes, three times as it happens, they have to make on the spot judgements all the time.

This is balanced by support from them, no one is perfect, we need the police and they need us, it's called consensus policing, the altenative is the Chinese /North Korean Saudi method. You have  a choice, you could move to Thailand, much better bang for your bucks, I am sure there are countries which you will find compatable, even in the UK you could guarantee to be free of burglaries and shoplifiting https://www.google.com/search?q=st+Kilda+image&rlz=1C1AWFC_enGB868GB869&sxsrf=ALeKk038gvUby6lhwM0hfukkwrcl8HUndw:1589703824250&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tlpT7bjq-uWmuM%3A%2CvsFjhsgWULVE5M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRZGf6yvvu54CX21cHwg7rmhHUqqA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv-fedvLrpAhWpSRUIHQvHCn0Q9QEwBnoECAoQLQ#imgrc=tlpT7bjq-uWmuM:

Don't waste time crtitising the police, you have a bad attitude, probably why you were harassed by them! Keep legal, keep lawfull and you will be left alone. 

 

Edited by LadyG
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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Some people have long round trip journeys that either can’t be completed in a day, or could be completed in a very long day with a lot of fatigue at the end of the drive home. 

Those people may use commonsense to decide the journey is not feasible  due to the fatigue risk  required to obey the rules.

I believe this is one of the  reasons why the rule about not staying overnight has been indicated.... in order to moderate the number of people making very long journeys and to moderate demand on local facilities in some areas . It's not just boating where the no overnight staying away from home requirement is being applied .

 

9 hours ago, Tom Morgan said:

I'm still happy to police myself, which is largely how the country used to run itself when I was a lad. 

I those days I expect most people respected the authorities and obeyed the rules without challenging them and without looking for loopholes ?

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Those people may use commonsense to decide the journey is not feasible  due to the fatigue risk  required to obey the rules.

I believe this is one of the  reasons why the rule about not staying overnight has been indicated.... in order to moderate the number of people making very long journeys and to moderate demand on local facilities in some areas . It's not just boating where the no overnight staying away from home requirement is being applied .

 

I those days I expect most people respected the authorities and obeyed the rules without challenging them and without looking for loopholes ?

I’m sure you are right that the idea is to prevent lots of people bailing out from the cities into rural hideaways and thus potentially overloading local facilities and spreading the virus. A noble aim but I think boaters  are “caught in the crossfire” because canal boats are well distributed throughout UK towns and cities, not concentrated in eg the Lake District.

 

A “one rule fits all” is inevitable, and inevitably going to be illogical in some cases. Which is why I would shop people only causing actual harm, not those who are acting against the letter of the rule but without actually causing any harm. Common sense, I think it is called.

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It may have helped if people were told something like 'no staying away from your main residence for more than 24hrs,.' Like a mooring, return home would reset the clock. This would deter people from travelling long distances for a hol but would allow people to travel a significant distance to check their boat, have some proper rest and return home safely. Should any issue present itself on checking the boat then being aboard would be classed as 'essential' to preserving the integrity and safety of the vessel and you are no longer there for leisure. I also imagine that this is a bugbear with a lot of fishermen who may enjoy night fishing. Will easily be out pre/post midnight so being given their hobby back with one hand a a big part theoretically taken back with the other.

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20 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

We are not to stay away from home overnight; of course people can stay on a boat overnight if that is their main or only home.

Guess the problem is all those people living on leisure moorings with a declared residence elsewhere. Have we seen a wholesale exodus of these people from the marinas or have the owners / staff quietly told them to keep their heads down, ask no questions, make no waves and stay aboard as before? Even if the marina were inflexible and did say to people that they couldn't stay aboard on a leisure mooring, people wouldn't be made homeless. It's a boat, a moveable home and could leave for the duration.

There are a number of reasons why peeps are living on their boats in marinas where residential status is not allowed. The boat that came in Dec for a 4 month stay and due to leave at the end of March. Boat Travel not allowed so it's stuck there. The guy and his wife who normally live at home but with 3 kids and 4 grandkids in the house and the pair of them in their 70s with other ailments, they upped sticks and hunkered down in the marina on March 24 th. Been there ever since. Numerous boats that spend the whole summer out on the canals but the owners spend half the winter on board are locked in because the instruction on the 24th was stay put. That's us. We needed to be on board for the first week of the lockdown and were emptying to boat into storage as it had just had a survey for sale. A week into the shutdown and were told 'stay at home' i.e. Where you are living.

Yesterday of course, quite a few owners turned up and stayed the night. They will be saying, why are you lot already here? The police would have a big job trying to prove who was breaking the law.

As I understand the law, it was about staying at home, meaning staying 'where you are living' rather than 'at your primary residence'.

So if you were on your boat when parliament passed the law, are you doing anything wrong?

Lets just face it, a vaccine will take years so we are all going to have to run the gauntlet of catching the disease and the trick will be to control it so the NHS does not get overloaded. In 2 weeks time the network might be fully opened. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There are a number of reasons why peeps are living on their boats in marinas where residential status is not allowed. The boat that came in Dec for a 4 month stay and due to leave at the end of March. Boat Travel not allowed so it's stuck there. The guy and his wife who normally live at home but with 3 kids and 4 grandkids in the house and the pair of them in their 70s with other ailments, they upped sticks and hunkered down in the marina on March 24 th. Been there ever since. Numerous boats that spend the whole summer out on the canals but the owners spend half the winter on board are locked in because the instruction on the 24th was stay put. That's us. We needed to be on board for the first week of the lockdown and were emptying to boat into storage as it had just had a survey for sale. A week into the shutdown and were told 'stay at home' i.e. Where you are living.

Yesterday of course, quite a few owners turned up and stayed the night. They will be saying, why are you lot already here? The police would have a big job trying to prove who was breaking the law.

As I understand the law, it was about staying at home, meaning staying 'where you are living' rather than 'at your primary residence'.

So if you were on your boat when parliament passed the law, are you doing anything wrong?

Lets just face it, a vaccine will take years so we are all going to have to run the gauntlet of catching the disease and the trick will be to control it so the NHS does not get overloaded. In 2 weeks time the network might be fully opened. 

 

Totally agree with that. A friend and his wife were at their static holiday lodge in Wales when lockdown came in. Still there. Some boat dwellers got caught on land.  More than one forum member will have been living on their boat recently because it makes sense to better protect the people they normally live with or themselves. Some will have just setup for the summer season and have been aboard when we were told to stay put. People are essentially living on leisure moorings under the radar everywhere including my own and I have no problem with that at all. I will add that those liveaboards do genuinely go out cruising a wide area. They may liveaboard but they don't need a residential mooring base. Many, many different reasons for people being on their boats for the last seven weeks. Personally I was glad that there still would have been people around when I wasn't allowed to visit.

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46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I’m sure you are right that the idea is to prevent lots of people bailing out from the cities into rural hideaways and thus potentially overloading local facilities and spreading the virus. A noble aim but I think boaters  are “caught in the crossfire” because canal boats are well distributed throughout UK towns and cities, not concentrated in eg the Lake District.

 

A “one rule fits all” is inevitable, and inevitably going to be illogical in some cases. Which is why I would shop people only causing actual harm, not those who are acting against the letter of the rule but without actually causing any harm. Common sense, I think it is called.

If we are constantly told that there are millions of different phone and utility deals, one right for each of us, then the "one size for all" approach to something so fundamental to society and freeedoms is doomed to be somewhat unworkable. I think I also failed to realise the sheer distances some people are from their boats when I suggested the 24hr away from home idea above. Even that isn't enough to allow some people sufficient time and rest to properly visit their boat. Glibly I was thinking maybe Devon to Midlands for some, 400 mile round trip. Then realised of course for some that distance may be only one way.

Could something be justified in a court, before the wider community. There must be situations where one action has to trump a blanket prohibition because common sense shows it as a justifiable digression and prevents a greater harm. 

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Back to the original question: whilst it is clear that the marina have no direct enforcement powers in relation to the Covid Act, it could be more complex than that:

 

As most marinas (and shops and businesses of all types) have said in their statements, they primarily have a duty for the safety and care of staff and customers, including those who are 'browsing' (ie it goes beyond contractual relationships). 'Turning a blind eye' may well often be the most comforting option in the short run, and feel justified by seeing the needs of those involved, but longer term there is the potential for 'ambulance chasing' lawyers to begin to work out how they can encourage clients to sue those considered culpable in not doing enough to prevent them catching the virus. It is surprising -  and little to do with the (in)famous 'common sense' - what cases a determined lawyer can run.

 

In acting in the best interests of all the marina users, the operators clearly have a duty of care to use their contractual powers in a quasi enforcement role to ensure that everyone makes some semblance of trying to comply rather than push the boundaries well beyond and common sense interpretation of them.

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I think in decisions of this nature there are two questions one should ask of oneself.

Firstly, if everyone carried out my proposed course of action, would that be a potential problem?

The follow up to that is, is everyone else refraining in order to leave space for me?

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Possbly  less threat,,

 The whole stay at home is to stop the spread of dsease due to people coming in to contact with the virus, if we all had to stay in complete isolation for three weeks that might stop the spread, but cause complete chaos, then it would  start again when somebody arrives in the UK with a fresh dose of it.

 

But thousands of people are still arriving into the UK and not being checked in ANY way, ah but quarantine will come in soon?  Someone, albeit a reporter, took an overnight trip to Amsterdam; was checked in and out of the airport there.  [so they claim]

 

The whole thing is a jucking foke when peeps turn up to marinas in their SUV's with a sense of entitlement to do whatever they want.  Lockdown should be lockdown like NZ; then you have a fighting chance of limiting any spread within UK - and I mean all 4 nations acting as one.

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15 hours ago, BilgePump said:

...someone staying over on their leisure boat at the moment is simply claiming to be more important, more privileged and more entitled to put everyone else at greater risk than the rest of us. 

:clapping:

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

14 hours ago, Neil2 said:

I suppose there are fewer motorists for them to hassle these days.

 

By "hassle" do you mean "explain motoring law to"?

 

 

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Surely the reason for no overnight is to ensure that the population stay where they spend most of their time, this is because facilities like hospitals are built to serve the local community and are sized accordingly. The odd few less/more in an area is not a problem, but if an additional 250,000 go to Cornwall, as they do in summer, the local facilties, which are sized to cope with the local poulation of 500,000, could be overwhelmed. 

The aim of this lockdown has been to save the hospitals being swamped, no politician, or human can accept people dying unattended on the street because the hospital is overflowing. So us all rushing into areas other than our primary homes, messes up the hospital capacity calculations.

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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Don't waste time crtitising the police, you have a bad attitude, probably why you were harassed by them! Keep legal, keep lawfull and you will be left alone. 

 

Well put. Since our police are indeed human, it always pays to be polite and courteous in one's dealings with them.

The police will still be on our side, and policing by consent, after the Revolution.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, rustynewbery said:

But thousands of people are still arriving into the UK and not being checked in ANY way, ah but quarantine will come in soon?  Someone, albeit a reporter, took an overnight trip to Amsterdam; was checked in and out of the airport there.  [so they claim]

 

The whole thing is a jucking foke when peeps turn up to marinas in their SUV's with a sense of entitlement to do whatever they want.  Lockdown should be lockdown like NZ; then you have a fighting chance of limiting any spread within UK - and I mean all 4 nations acting as one.

You missed my point, I was saying theoretically one could impose Wuhan style lockdown, where folks were not allowed to shop in the standard manner in the UK, ie two people going to the s'market.

A curfew, no one moving between dusk and dawn, no movement at all!

Only movement allowed would be agreed in advance, ie no random movements.

Armed troops on the streets. do you think the government has only asked the army to deliver PPE?

I can't even remember our government declaring a lockdown, that is just a popular expression for the UK restrictions.

As for the UK/British Isles, Wales/Scotland, in the big scheme it makes no difference, we are not in total lockdown, and regional rules may yet apply, or not. You have to realise there are areas which have not been affected in the way London has. They may still be in the primary wave situation when London is in the second or third or fourth stage.

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, rustynewbery said:

 Lockdown should be lockdown like NZ; then you have a fighting chance of limiting any spread within UK - and I mean all 4 nations acting as one.

Well no.

The UK government (in their wisdom - we voted them in) have decided we are not in a total lockdown and are relaxing the rules.

I agree with the relaxation as this virus is not going to go away and locking us up for another month or two is just going to delay our exposure later in the year. The only advantage of a total lockdown is to delay our exposure until they get a better handle on how to treat us, but at the cost of peeps dying for all sorts of other reasons. The summer is coming. Transmission will be less while we are outdoors and as the NHS has lots of capacity, now is the time (for me) to relax the rules.

It seems from all the studies out there that less than 10% of the population has had this disease so locking us up is not going to achieve herd immunity. Letting it spread slowly is I think the best idea today.

The big problem is that the government advice/laws are so confused that no one really knows what to do and the SUV brigade can flout what we think the laws are.

I just hope they find the medical solution to treat the worst cases to stop people dying as soon as possible. That is to me the best cases scenario.

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1 hour ago, rustynewbery said:

But thousands of people are still arriving into the UK and not being checked in ANY way, ah but quarantine will come in soon?  Someone, albeit a reporter, took an overnight trip to Amsterdam; was checked in and out of the airport there.  [so they claim]

 

The whole thing is a jucking foke when peeps turn up to marinas in their SUV's with a sense of entitlement to do whatever they want.  Lockdown should be lockdown like NZ; then you have a fighting chance of limiting any spread within UK - and I mean all 4 nations acting as one.

You are short sighted and lack logic. Under your strategy, there is no exit and the economy collapses, people starve. Is that what your virtue-signalling self wants? A return to anarchy perhaps?


The virus almost certainly has to spread until the heard immunity thing kicks in. The aim is for it to spread slowly and in a controlled way, to avoid swamping hospitals. Ok perhaps there may be a vaccine, but bearing in mind that similar viruses have been around for years /decades / centuries and still no vaccine, it is an extremely risky strategy to put all your eggs in that basket.
 

People have to get it slowly, some people will die. That is the only truth of it.

6 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Well no.

The UK government (in their wisdom - we voted them in) have decided we are not in a total lockdown and are relaxing the rules.

I agree with the relaxation as this virus is not going to go away and locking us up for another month or two is just going to delay our exposure later in the year. The only advantage of a total lockdown is to delay our exposure until they get a better handle on how to treat us, but at the cost of peeps dying for all sorts of other reasons. The summer is coming. Transmission will be less while we are outdoors and as the NHS has lots of capacity, now is the time (for me) to relax the rules.

It seems from all the studies out there that less than 10% of the population has had this disease so locking us up is not going to achieve herd immunity. Letting it spread slowly is I think the best idea today.

The big problem is that the government advice/laws are so confused that no one really knows what to do and the SUV brigade can flout what we think the laws are.

I just hope they find the medical solution to treat the worst cases to stop people dying as soon as possible. That is to me the best cases scenario.

Eggzachary. Well apart from the SUVism. Some SUV owners are very nice people. Well, that is what they say anyway, whilst lobbying parliament to have owning an SUV added as a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

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Well when we are on that subject, it is now recommended that folks travel to work in thir cars [I can hear the sirens starting up again]

I went past the local garage the other day, a nice little car he had had on the forecourt for a few weeks is now gone, so someone is injecting cash in to the economy, this is much needed.

We need to get back on our feet, well not me as I am too ld and too at risk to volunteer, but I am sure there are folks who can help others without puting their lives in great danger.

I wonder what happened to that army of volunteers, I suppose they are helping others, no one has asked me if i need help, a the moment I don't, but I am not sure how I would get it if I got struck by the Lurgi.

 

Edited by LadyG
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4 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

How that relates to the fact that it's presently possible to meet your mother and your father, but only one at a time unless you work for them,

or they arrange a viewing of your house which is for sale, or you happen to end up sitting in the next park bench to them when out for your all day walk, at the park near their home, or on the beach, or at the tennis court, or golf course.

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3 hours ago, BilgePump said:

I also imagine that this is a bugbear with a lot of fishermen who may enjoy night fishing. Will easily be out pre/post midnight so being given their hobby back with one hand a a big part theoretically taken back with the other.

Whatever it is called, the Fishing Association have interpreted/rationalised the guidelines in such a way as to allow night fishing.

 

Their guidance was posted somewhere on here, but I can’t recall which thread.

 

So camping near water with a fishing rod is allowed. Perhaps you can even go to sleep if you have an appropriate alarm on the line. Perhaps you can even fish overnight from your boat .........

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4 hours ago, LadyG said:

I have been on the receiving end of police making flawed judgements, yes, three times as it happens, they have to make on the spot judgements all the time.

This is balanced by support from them, no one is perfect, we need the police and they need us, it's called consensus policing, the altenative is the Chinese /North Korean Saudi method. You have  a choice, you could move to Thailand, much better bang for your bucks, I am sure there are countries which you will find compatable, even in the UK you could guarantee to be free of burglaries and shoplifiting https://www.google.com/search?q=st+Kilda+image&rlz=1C1AWFC_enGB868GB869&sxsrf=ALeKk038gvUby6lhwM0hfukkwrcl8HUndw:1589703824250&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tlpT7bjq-uWmuM%3A%2CvsFjhsgWULVE5M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRZGf6yvvu54CX21cHwg7rmhHUqqA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv-fedvLrpAhWpSRUIHQvHCn0Q9QEwBnoECAoQLQ#imgrc=tlpT7bjq-uWmuM:

Don't waste time crtitising the police, you have a bad attitude, probably why you were harassed by them! Keep legal, keep lawfull and you will be left alone. 

 

I accept my contribution was provocative, but there's no need to respond with accusations like that.

 

You have no knowledge of my personal circumstances so don't make assumptions. 

 

"Keep legal/lawful and you will be left alone"..? - that is patently not true.  

 

I do not regard criticising the police as a waste of time.  Our present system of policing has never been worse in my opinion, if we don't criticise/complain  nothing will ever improve.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, Detling said:

Surely the reason for no overnight is to ensure that the population stay where they spend most of their time, this is because facilities like hospitals are built to serve the local community and are sized accordingly. The odd few less/more in an area is not a problem, but if an additional 250,000 go to Cornwall, as they do in summer, the local facilties, which are sized to cope with the local poulation of 500,000, could be overwhelmed. 

The aim of this lockdown has been to save the hospitals being swamped, no politician, or human can accept people dying unattended on the street because the hospital is overflowing. So us all rushing into areas other than our primary homes, messes up the hospital capacity calculations.

As I have pointed out before, the health facilities here in Cornwall are sized to cope with the normal levels of demand. In a 'normal' summer they deal with quite a bit of visitor trade (as it were). I suspect the same is true for all holiday destinations. 

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