Can we cruise again?

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Dave123 said:

 What is the argument against allowing lesuire boats to go out the marina and moor on the towpath overnight (with no one on board) to allow for a different day trip on a subsequent day?

I dont think there is an argument against what you suggest. I dont think I've seen anything which says boater MUST return to their home mooring after their "short trip". Merely that they shouldn't stay on the boat overnight.

 

I think, if I wanted to, I could cruise to Dunham Massey, moor up, get the bus, tram, and bus, back home, then go back the next day, and do the same after continuing my cruise to Lymm.

 

I suppose the limit would be whether I could get to the boat, and back home, by public transport, with the cruise in between.

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Must admit I have never had a flu jab. I went once and the waiting room was full of people coughing and spluttering so I came straight out. A bit like Coronavirus we dont mix much in high density areas in the Flu season. 

I get one every year from work.  Every year I have colleagues telling me they wont have one for various spurious reasons, most commonly "I'm healthy so I don't need one."  Every year I have to explain to them that it's not just about keeping themselves healthy, it's also about protecting more vulnerable people around them.

 

Most people simply seem unable to grasp what a vaccine is, and think of it as a sort of medicine.  Hopefully the public will be slightly better informed after covid19 but I have my doubts.

[Flyboy]

23 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I dont think there is an argument against what you suggest. I dont think I've seen anything which says boater MUST return to their home mooring after their "short trip". Merely that they shouldn't stay on the boat overnight.

 

I think, if I wanted to, I could cruise to Dunham Massey, moor up, get the bus, tram, and bus, back home, then go back the next day, and do the same after continuing my cruise to Lymm.

 

I suppose the limit would be whether I could get to the boat, and back home, by public transport, with the cruise in between.

Seems clear enough to me.   This is what CaRT says :-  Undertake short boating trips only– avoiding using locks and any staff-operated structures if possible – providing, as per current government guidance, you do not stay away from home overnight and return to your home mooring (where you have one).

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Of course they have a duty of care. This can't be absolute though. Otherwise, councils would close down all their roads just in case someone might have an accident. CRT would have to fence off all canals just in case someone might fall in and drown. Fishing would be banned to make absolutely certain that nobody runs the risk, however remote, that someone might lose an eye if they were to walk past an angler who's casting out.

 

Their duty of care will be a balance of risk vs. likelihood of the event in question happening. My point is that local authorities are the best example of a major shift in risk assessment during this crisis. From perhaps a pragmatic and sensible balance pre-covid to the status quo of extreme caution, a level out of step with the balance between the probability of the event occurring and the necessity of continuance of day to day life.   

The question is one of reasonableness.  Covid 19 is new so nobody really knows what the man on the Clapham Omnibus will eventually consider reasonable in mortality rates.  Until such time as we do, LAs are rightly taking a precautionary approach.

 

Right now, we don't even know what the eventual mortality rates will be. We know it it has killed in excess of 35000 in the UK in a little over two months.  All the experts accept that the true figure will turn out to be much higher when excess mortality is looked at (in the same way flu deaths are estimated).  So we know that right now the virus is a significantly bigger problem than seasonal flu, despite a lockdown.  Modellers have estimated was the mortality rates would have been without the lockdown and they are frankly horrifying. 

 

Even with the measures taken, we are unlikely to come out of this with less than 100,000 attributable deaths this year alone.  THIS IS NOT THE FLU!

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I get one every year from work.  Every year I have colleagues telling me they wont have one for various spurious reasons, most commonly "I'm healthy so I don't need one."  Every year I have to explain to them that it's not just about keeping themselves healthy, it's also about protecting more vulnerable people around them.

 

Most people simply seem unable to grasp what a vaccine is, and think of it as a sort of medicine.  Hopefully the public will be slightly better informed after covid19 but I have my doubts.

The same people will say they will not be signing up in any way to help the government in beating this virus ( I just signed up ) as their precious data may be violated 

[doratheexplorer]

4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Seems clear enough to me.   This is what CaRT says :-  Undertake short boating trips only– avoiding using locks and any staff-operated structures if possible – providing, as per current government guidance, you do not stay away from home overnight and return to your home mooring (where you have one).

Beat me to it.  Multi day trips are not short, whether you sleep on board or not.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Seems clear enough to me.   This is what CaRT says :-  Undertake short boating trips only– avoiding using locks and any staff-operated structures if possible – providing, as per current government guidance, you do not stay away from home overnight and return to your home mooring (where you have one).

 

26 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I dont think there is an argument against what you suggest. I dont think I've seen anything which says boater MUST return to their home mooring after their "short trip". Merely that they shouldn't stay on the boat overnight.

 

I think, if I wanted to, I could cruise to Dunham Massey, moor up, get the bus, tram, and bus, back home, then go back the next day, and do the same after continuing my cruise to Lymm.

 

Note that @Richard10002 is on the Bridgewater Canal - the navigation is fully open, and they are only asking that social distancing measures are observed by all users.

 

Getting cross at him about what CRT are asking is pointless unless he comes onto CRT waters.

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

Note that @Richard10002 is on the Bridgewater Canal - the navigation is fully open, and they are only asking that social distancing measures are observed by all users.

 

Getting cross at him about what CRT are asking is pointless unless he comes onto CRT waters.

Except he was responding to a query which was specifically about CRT canals.

[churchward]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

It is Arthur I am worried about them both in their 70s and he has dementia, thanks for the thoughts ?

It is a worry and somewhat of a lottery how severe the reaction to the virus will be.  Hopefully they will be at the milder end of the scale, do not require hospitalisation and have not passed onto many/any others either. I hope everyone can stay safe.

 

It is tricky with my father living with us he is 88 and has diabetes and Parkinson's. The odds for someone over 80 and with diabetes is not good.  The stress for us is that if he did get it it would be one of us that has brought the virus into the house but we need to go out and get food and prescriptions etc.  The upside is that we do not have any cases locally and not many regionally.  The local GP services have been very good too.

[Tim Lewis]

EA Update

 

Guidance

Environment Agency waterways: Coronavirus (Covid-19) update 19 May 2020

Updated 21 May 2020

 

We are keen to get people boating as soon as we can. We currently have teams out along our waterways making preparations safely and swiftly. Our priority is health and safety of our customers and staff and because of the nature of the rivers and our structures this work is ongoing.

You can now do all non-powered water sports on EA waterways and some waterways will be ready for leisure cruising as early as this week, with the rest by 1 June, unless hazards in the waterways prevent us from doing so.

We have written to boaters and navigation groups regularly throughout the Coronavirus pandemic to update you on lockdown restrictions and changes on our waterways. Today we are sharing more information about some of our work and updates on specific waterways.

You will be aware that on Wednesday 12 May the Government announced that water sports can resume including motor cruising, in accordance with the guidance of the relevant Navigation Authority. Now, all non-powered water sports can take place on EA waterways as long as they follow Government social distancing guidance, respect the needs and safety of our residential boating community and are extra vigilant in the water.

We are working hard to make sure powered boats can start leisure cruising on our waterways from 1 June at the latest. In order to be ready for this we have reassured boaters they can now visit their moored boats (subject to approval of your marina operator or boat club) to check them, carry out maintenance and ensure they are ready for use.

Our preparations involve carrying out a thorough (reach-by-reach) inspection of the channels, mark hazards, check the operational condition of our assets and issue safety advice to protect river users. We know there are some hazards out there such as sunken boats, shoals and fallen trees and our teams will be identifying and clearing these to make the waterways safe. We ask all boaters currently making essential journeys to be extra vigilant of unmarked hazards.

We will complete all inspections within 2 weeks, revise our guidance and get powered boats moving again no later than 1 June. Hazard markings, signage and safety advice will be in place by then. Where we identify hazards, we may have to continue to minimise movement on those reaches until we can complete the urgent maintenance work and local notices will be issued to inform you.

Where we do complete this sooner we will let local users know through local communications. On the Medway and some reaches of the Great Ouse, The Nene and the Thames this could happen as early as this week, followed by the remainder of the Thames and the Anglian waterways by 1 June.

We must still work under conditions of social distancing. This means we will not be able to provide some assisted passage at locks for the time being and some maintenance work may take longer to complete under the new Government safe working practices guidance.

From the 1 June, our normal time restrictions for our short stay moorings will be in place again. This means people currently moored on our short stay moorings will need to resume continuous cruising or return to their permanent mooring. If you are experiencing difficulty moving because you are isolating or shielding, please get in touch with your local waterways team.

You may also have received notification today that the Boat Safety Scheme Examination suspension has now been lifted, with a framework designed to prevent transmission of the virus by the use of social distancing between the boat owner and examiner. New guidance has now been prepared for boat owners to help them prepare for examinations. This can be found at www.boatsafetyscheme.org/COVID.

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

>>a level out of step with the balance<<

 

In your opinion. Others may differ.

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Every year I have to explain to them that it's not just about keeping themselves healthy, it's also about protecting more vulnerable people around them.

 

Yes - that's much better put than my attempt at an explanation. 

[doratheexplorer]

9 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

EA Update

 

Guidance

Environment Agency waterways: Coronavirus (Covid-19) update 19 May 2020

Updated 21 May 2020

 

We are keen to get people boating as soon as we can. We currently have teams out along our waterways making preparations safely and swiftly. Our priority is health and safety of our customers and staff and because of the nature of the rivers and our structures this work is ongoing.

You can now do all non-powered water sports on EA waterways and some waterways will be ready for leisure cruising as early as this week, with the rest by 1 June, unless hazards in the waterways prevent us from doing so.

We have written to boaters and navigation groups regularly throughout the Coronavirus pandemic to update you on lockdown restrictions and changes on our waterways. Today we are sharing more information about some of our work and updates on specific waterways.

You will be aware that on Wednesday 12 May the Government announced that water sports can resume including motor cruising, in accordance with the guidance of the relevant Navigation Authority. Now, all non-powered water sports can take place on EA waterways as long as they follow Government social distancing guidance, respect the needs and safety of our residential boating community and are extra vigilant in the water.

We are working hard to make sure powered boats can start leisure cruising on our waterways from 1 June at the latest. In order to be ready for this we have reassured boaters they can now visit their moored boats (subject to approval of your marina operator or boat club) to check them, carry out maintenance and ensure they are ready for use.

Our preparations involve carrying out a thorough (reach-by-reach) inspection of the channels, mark hazards, check the operational condition of our assets and issue safety advice to protect river users. We know there are some hazards out there such as sunken boats, shoals and fallen trees and our teams will be identifying and clearing these to make the waterways safe. We ask all boaters currently making essential journeys to be extra vigilant of unmarked hazards.

We will complete all inspections within 2 weeks, revise our guidance and get powered boats moving again no later than 1 June. Hazard markings, signage and safety advice will be in place by then. Where we identify hazards, we may have to continue to minimise movement on those reaches until we can complete the urgent maintenance work and local notices will be issued to inform you.

Where we do complete this sooner we will let local users know through local communications. On the Medway and some reaches of the Great Ouse, The Nene and the Thames this could happen as early as this week, followed by the remainder of the Thames and the Anglian waterways by 1 June.

We must still work under conditions of social distancing. This means we will not be able to provide some assisted passage at locks for the time being and some maintenance work may take longer to complete under the new Government safe working practices guidance.

From the 1 June, our normal time restrictions for our short stay moorings will be in place again. This means people currently moored on our short stay moorings will need to resume continuous cruising or return to their permanent mooring. If you are experiencing difficulty moving because you are isolating or shielding, please get in touch with your local waterways team.

You may also have received notification today that the Boat Safety Scheme Examination suspension has now been lifted, with a framework designed to prevent transmission of the virus by the use of social distancing between the boat owner and examiner. New guidance has now been prepared for boat owners to help them prepare for examinations. This can be found at www.boatsafetyscheme.org/COVID.

Nothing there about overnight stays.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Had my first flu jab one last autumn. It was by prior appointment, the GP's surgery was empty, and the whole process took about 90 seconds.

 

 

 

 

My surgery does three saturday mornings, turn up and wait.

[churchward]

3 hours ago, john6767 said:

In practice it does not need R of 0.0 to be acceptable, but an R of 0.7 to 1.0 means a sustained level for a very long time.   We seem to manage to accept flu and other stuff that kills many thousands each year, so we can get to the point it kill numbers broadly in line with flu, with no restriction on the public, then I presume it would be seen by the public as acceptable.  But I think getting to an R of 0.0 is just not practical, so I don't believe it will peter out just like the majority of other viruses have not petered out.

I am not sure "accepting" Flu is quite right.  It is true that a level of infection has to be accepted but it does not mean medical science is doing anything about it.  The level of deaths generally have been reducing due to being better (faster) at generating new vaccines for mutations and also modelling which flu strains are more likely to be in circulation each year.  This all makes the Flu jab many people at risk receive has become more effective. But of course such research and vaccine is not perfect and people do still die of Flu.

 

The issue will be although there may again be no real choice but to accept it is that the Covid deaths are and will be in addition to the Flu deaths each year. We could be looking at a doubling (or more who knows) of the average annual deaths due to flu.

 

Covid-19 could be with us for quite some time.  It seems unlikely as you say that it will disappear completely either naturally or via a vaccine.  A vaccine like the flu jab will probably (if/when available) keep it at bay but not eliminate it especially if the virus mutates each year. 

 

I don't think that anyone really knows right now how next year looks whether we are back to pre-virus activities or some other mode. It seems unlikely to me that this time next year it will be all over but I am hopeful that life will be a lot better than it is now for as many people as possible.

[Proper Charlie]

40 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The same people will say they will not be signing up in any way to help the government in beating this virus ( I just signed up ) as their precious data may be violated 

What is it that you’ve signed up to?

[john6767]

2 hours ago, Dave123 said:

Back to boating...just noticed in the latest CRT email it says boats that aren't liveaboard going out for their day trip have to return to their home mooring at the end of the day. Whilst this doesn't apply to me it did make me curious. Many non-liveaboard boats shuffle about on towpath moorings and are now presumably allowed to start doing this again. Canals are pretty quiet currently. What is the argument against allowing lesuire boats to go out the marina and moor on the towpath overnight (with no one on board) to allow for a different day trip on a subsequent day?

It’s just the fact that the current government rules mean you have to be at your primary residence overnight, ie no use of second homes.

[churchward]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

One thing I am curious about is how many deaths attributed to Covid 19 actually were down to 'normal' influenza?

 

In the absence of an extensive testing regime we will never know.

Exact numbers probably not but what is evident is that many more people are dying than is seasonally normal.  Nor all the extra deaths will be directly due to Covid-19 either.

 

We do know those that have died with Flu/pneumonia on the death certificate and those that have Covid-19 on the death certificate.  Prior to Covid-19 the UK flu season was running a little below the five year average for Flu deaths but not far off. It is also true to say that deaths due to flu have not suddenly stopped during the Covid-19 outbreak and have run at the 5 year average rate more or less.

 

See the details here

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending8may2020

 

In terms of testing the UK is doing quite a lot of testing now and cumulative the UK has tested the equivalent of 4.3% of the population that compares with The percentage of population the Germans have tested but behind Italy and Spain which is about 5-6% France have tested about 2.1%

[churchward]

59 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I get one every year from work.  Every year I have colleagues telling me they wont have one for various spurious reasons, most commonly "I'm healthy so I don't need one."  Every year I have to explain to them that it's not just about keeping themselves healthy, it's also about protecting more vulnerable people around them.

 

Most people simply seem unable to grasp what a vaccine is, and think of it as a sort of medicine.  Hopefully the public will be slightly better informed after covid19 but I have my doubts.

That is right.  Vaccinations are about protecting everyone not just those who have actually had it.

 

If we do get an effective Covid vaccination thankfully it will not need everyone to have the injection.  If over 60% or so of the population becomes immune that will protect the 40% too.  When an infected person is generally surrounded by people with some immunity the chain of infection will be broken as there is just not enough others near by it can infect.

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, Proper Charlie said:

What is it that you’ve signed up to?

 I was contacted to help in some covid tracking testing jobby being undertaken by some medical place in London. They are sending me a kit to swab and stuff thats then picked up by courier. I was told that my data may be used blah blah blah.....................There are some on here that think more of their data than helping save lives, you may not believe that but its true.

[Machpoint005]

45 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It’s just the fact that the current government rules mean you have to be at your primary residence overnight, ie no use of second homes.

 

... which is because second homes, caravans etc tend to be in places not well served by hospitals. Make an exception for boaters (a very small cohort, after all) and all the other minority interests will want it. That's not a good idea. We should not be confusing (or conflating) our individual circumstances with the general state of affairs. 

37 minutes ago, churchward said:

In terms of testing the UK is doing quite a lot of testing now and cumulative the UK has tested the equivalent of 4.3% of the population that compares with The percentage of population the Germans have tested but behind Italy and Spain which is about 5-6% France have tested about 2.1%

 

All well and good, but it prompts me to ask how we can possibly know how many infections there are out there. The headline figure of 36,000 deaths could easily be a gross underestimate. I notice that the infection rate in Barrow-in-Furness, for example, is much higher - partly because they have tested a much greater percentage of a smaller area population there.  

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Machpoint005
In case the figure was misunderstood.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, churchward said:

The issue will be although there may again be no real choice but to accept it is that the Covid deaths are and will be in addition to the Flu deaths each year. We could be looking at a doubling (or more who knows) of the average annual deaths due to flu.

From The Telegraph:

Professor Tim Spector of King’s College heads the team which has developed the UK’s biggest symptom tracking app and believes the long-term impact of the virus is being underestimated.

“The Government is telling people that this is just like the flu and only checking on a few symptoms, but it’s not at all like the flu,” he told the Telegraph. “For many people it can linger on; many people are saying they’ve had it for over three months now.”

Describing Covid-19 as one of the “strangest diseases I’ve ever come across”, Prof Spector is concerned that we are “underestimating” the virus by failing to collect comprehensive data on long-term, milder symptoms charted in the graphic below...

 

Those symptoms being such things as aches and pains, fatigue, diarrhoea, sore throat, at up to 40 days or more after first diagnosis. 

 

[john6767]

46 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

... which is because second homes, caravans etc tend to be in places not well served by hospitals. Make an exception for boaters (a very small cohort, after all) and all the other minority interests will want it. That's not a good idea. We should not be confusing (or conflating) our individual circumstances with the general state of affairs. 

 

All well and good, but it prompts me to ask how we can possibly know how many infections there are out there. The headline figure of 36,000 deaths could easily be a gross underestimate. I notice that the infection rate in Barrow-in-Furness, for example, is much higher - partly because they have tested a much greater percentage of a smaller area population there.  

 

 

 

Reading between the lines, my guess is that CRT are working with the government to see if boats can be separated from second homes, in the timeline of allowing overnight stays.  The government could quite reasonably say no of course.

[churchward]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

From The Telegraph:

 

 

Those symptoms being such things as aches and pains, fatigue, diarrhoea, sore throat, at up to 40 days or more after first diagnosis. 

 

Yes a lot of people have come out of hospital very weak and will be in recovery for some time to come.

[Paddle]

On 13/05/2020 at 22:17, MoominPapa said:

It doesn't matter what you think the result of catching the virus will be for you personally, the one thing you can know for sure is that if you catch it your body will make billions of new virus particles and distribute them into the world, where they may well cause great harm to others. The best way to protect the vulnerable is NOT TO CATCH THE DAMN DISEASE even if you hardly notice it yourself.

 

MP.

I think you've got that completely upside down. The best way to protect the vulnerable is for them to hide away and for the rest of us to get it as quickly as possible. Then the vulnerable can come out of hiding.

[churchward]

53 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

... which is because second homes, caravans etc tend to be in places not well served by hospitals. Make an exception for boaters (a very small cohort, after all) and all the other minority interests will want it. That's not a good idea. We should not be confusing (or conflating) our individual circumstances with the general state of affairs. 

 

All well and good, but it prompts me to ask how we can possibly know how many infections there are out there. The headline figure of 36,000 deaths could easily be a gross underestimate. I notice that the infection rate in Barrow-in-Furness, for example, is much higher - partly because they have tested a much greater percentage of a smaller area population there.  

 

 

 

The headline figure I am sure is an underestimate when you  look at "extra" deaths across the UK above what would normally be expected for the last two months.  The greater the number of tests the more likely the estimate of depth of infection in the country is likely to be accurate.  It looks like we are getting to the point that testing is giving a reasonable view of that.  The UK has been testing a lot more than it was but on the whole that extra testing is not finding huge numbers of increased infections. Until there is a good amount of anti-body tests being conducted too we will not be able to verify the full spread of infection during the epidemic and depth into the population I expect.

 

I think you are right in that the averaging a UK picture does not show how the virus has been spread and behaved in some areas compared to others.   I saw a chart the other day, probably on the ONS site that showed a UK map with colour coding for the number of infections.  It was interesting to see not just a strong area around London but quite a wide band crossing England particularly from London to Liverpool/Manchester in the west and Leeds in the east. Perhaps not too surprising as this takes in some large/dense population areas but striking all the same.

 

In Wales many more infections and deaths in the SE and along the border areas as the virus generally spread East to west.  The West coast of Wales has been reasonably light in infections as the lockdown came in time to slow the spread before it got a hold.