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Hirers beware


Rooffy

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Anglo Welsh. Back in November I booked a week in May from their Bath base, paid £336 deposit, for our annual lads’ trip (45th one!). Of six crew, 3 are over eighty (2 of whom are now classed as critically vulnerable to covid), one youngster in his fifties is similarly classed due to a heart condition though a mere sixty. The two others could well survive the trip, up Caen Hill and onward a bit, then return. Then covid struck and the pubs and restaurants were shut. This would mean considerable problems for us. So I told Anglo Welsh by email that we wished to cancel and due to our particular circumstances requested return of my deposit. Response came there none. Then canal travel was stopped anyway. So I asked again for my deposit and received an identical response.

What is on offer from Anglo Welsh is deferment. In other words they assume your dates are flexible and they decide to defer, we don’t. Meanwhile they retain the deposit. At some future date, possibly next year, if our gallant crew survive intact and if Anglo Welsh do not go bust meantime, we will presumably be told we can book again. We may be in no condition to do so.

I am not asking anyone to support my position on this or otherwise. I am just saying beware of hiring until there is some certainty that you will be able to have your trip when you want it and before you die.

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It is a tricky one. And same with holiday cottage bookings, flight tickets etc. Yes on the face of it you should get your money back. But equally, if these organisations did that they wouldn’t actually have the cash reserves and would all go bust. Then when you did want to book again, you’d find there were no companies to book with, all the folk who worked for them were unemployed etc.

 

It is a facet of modern business in that, in the “race to the bottom” on price, cash liquidity is squeezed to the bare minimum and companies rely on advance payments to stay in business.

 

So maybe you should look at it as an inevitable feature of this unprecedented circumstance. I suggest that you will feel better if you accept it is part of the “hit” from Coronavirus, rather than raging about the injustice of it. 

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34 minutes ago, Rooffy said:

Anglo Welsh. Back in November I booked a week in May from their Bath base, paid £336 deposit, for our annual lads’ trip (45th one!). Of six crew, 3 are over eighty (2 of whom are now classed as critically vulnerable to covid), one youngster in his fifties is similarly classed due to a heart condition though a mere sixty. The two others could well survive the trip, up Caen Hill and onward a bit, then return. Then covid struck and the pubs and restaurants were shut. This would mean considerable problems for us. So I told Anglo Welsh by email that we wished to cancel and due to our particular circumstances requested return of my deposit. Response came there none. Then canal travel was stopped anyway. So I asked again for my deposit and received an identical response.

 

What is on offer from Anglo Welsh is deferment. In other words they assume your dates are flexible and they decide to defer, we don’t. Meanwhile they retain the deposit. At some future date, possibly next year, if our gallant crew survive intact and if Anglo Welsh do not go bust meantime, we will presumably be told we can book again. We may be in no condition to do so.

 

I am not asking anyone to support my position on this or otherwise. I am just saying beware of hiring until there is some certainty that you will be able to have your trip when you want it and before you die.

 

Did you read the conditions before you handed over the deposit ?

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I’m due to have the main payment of our holiday taken automatically from my credit card at the start of June. I’ve paid 5% deposit. I really don’t want them taking the balance because we might not be in a position to take a similar holiday in future and what if the company goes out of business?

 

I’m going to cancel and forget the deposit.

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I think / we must all be pragmatic about curent nationa conditions and can't really expect miracles or to escape without some cost.

I've recentlr paid my marina's mooring bill for 20/21 and it's huge (one of the joys of being on the Thames and for having what is a WSOB in those waters).

How do 'you' expect the business to survive - and this applies to other services tha you can't use?

 

Bite the bullet Old Chap and hope tht 'tomorrow' will be a better day.

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Last year I booked a room in Newquay for a week at the end of July I'm hoping I restrictions will be lifted and I can go, but I accepted the booking conditions of a non refundable deposit and that applies to boats as well, in making the booking you accepted the conditions.

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It is I think what much of the travel/leisure industry are doing.  We had our flight to Italy cancelled by them when Italy locked down in early March and they cancelled the flights due to government banning travel to Italy.  Whist we got hotel and other stuff refunded, Jet2 are hanging on to our £750 flight money.  You cant even talk to them now as they have closed their call centre.  Not expecting to see the money to be honest, they will probably go bust and take our money with them.

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It's good to see people being very pragmatic on here regarding other people's money. I don't know the booking terms of the OP so won't comment on that but the airlines etc should all be refunding.  If a business goes bust after refunding deposits, well so be it.  I'm sure the shareholders have enjoyed their dividends over the years rather than building a cash reserve for unplanned issues. 

 

The airlines have had warnings before, SARS, the Icelandic ash issue, 911 etc. In the last 15 years there have been at least 3 incidents of airlines not being able to fly or no demand due to passenger confidence. This should be part of their planning and cash reserve strategy. Other people's money should remain just that and not be part of a businesses emergency planning.

 

If BA and Virgin go bust, as soon as there is demand, other companies will take up the slack. 

Edited by jeddlad
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11 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It is I think what much of the travel/leisure industry are doing.  We had our flight to Italy cancelled by them when Italy locked down in early March and they cancelled the flights due to government banning travel to Italy.  Whist we got hotel and other stuff refunded, Jet2 are hanging on to our £750 flight money.  You cant even talk to them now as they have closed their call centre.  Not expecting to see the money to be honest, they will probably go bust and take our money with them.

Ryanair, sitting on billions,have laid off staff and told customers that the logistics of refunds may take up to a year. Always thought O'Leary was a sh!t, His recent comments proved it in spades

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12 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Ryanair, sitting on billions,have laid off staff and told customers that the logistics of refunds may take up to a year. Always thought O'Leary was a sh!t, His recent comments proved it in spades

I hate Ryanair with spades, the cabin interior is gross and all that on time arrive fanfare stuff, it just makes me cringe thinking about it.

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Martin Lewis recons money should legally be returned.  I've had money for holidays in park homes returned without me asking. Premier Holidays have said 'as I've cancelled the holiday I am not entitled to a refund'. I didn't cancel they did. The difference between good companies and bad. The bad definitely need publicising.  

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20 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

It's good to see people being very pragmatic on here regarding other people's money. I don't know the booking terms of the OP so won't comment on that but the airlines etc should all be refunding.  If a business goes bust after refunding deposits, well so be it.  I'm sure the shareholders have enjoyed their dividends over the years rather than building a cash reserve for unplanned issues. 

 

The airlines have had warnings before, SARS, the Icelandic ash issue, 911 etc. In the last 15 years there have been at least 3 incidents of airlines not being able to fly or no demand due to passenger confidence. This should be part of their planning and cash reserve strategy. Other people's money should remain just that and not be part of a businesses emergency planning.

 

If BA and Virgin go bust, as soon as there is demand, other companies will take up the slack. 

The problem is that these companies (with a few exceptions like Ryanair and BA) don’t have enough funds to refund everyone.

 

So there are 2 scenarios,

1: they refund as many people as they can until they go bust, those not refunded by the time the company goes bust -tough.

2. they offer vouchers, rebooking etc etc and eventually, everyone that booked gets a holiday, flight or whatever. Well, those that haven’t died in the meantime anyway.

2 minutes ago, sueb said:

Martin Lewis recons money should legally be returned.  I've had money for holidays in park homes returned without me asking. Premier Holidays have said 'as I've cancelled the holiday I am not entitled to a refund'. I didn't cancel they did. The difference between good companies and bad. The bad definitely need publicising.  

Martin Lewis is right, but equally you can’t get blood out of a stone as they say!

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Reinforces the importance of paying for anything major with a credit card.

 

Giving Section 75 protection. Subject of course to the third party payment process loophole .

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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30 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

If a business goes bust after refunding deposits, well so be it. 

Well it doesn't go bust after refunding the deposits, it will do so during the refund of deposits (and full fares) already paid, since the cash flow of such businesses relies on having the liquidity provided by advance payments. So if you want your deposit kick up a real stink now, start legal action etc. so that you might be one of the lucky ones who gets some money back before it all runs out (and others get nothing).

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11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The problem is that these companies (with a few exceptions like Ryanair and BA) don’t have enough funds to refund everyone.

 

So there are 2 scenarios,

1: they refund as many people as they can until they go bust, those not refunded by the time the company goes bust -tough.

2. they offer vouchers, rebooking etc etc and eventually, everyone that booked gets a holiday, flight or whatever. Well, those that haven’t died in the meantime anyway.

Martin Lewis is right, but equally you can’t get blood out of a stone as they say!

Nick,

 

Isn't it theft is a company keeps money that they are not legally entitled too? They should have a contingency in place. I'm tired of hearing the airlines bleat on about this. They take the money when the good times are here, buying ither airlines, paying shareholders and senior managers loads of dosh.

 

If a business can only work by stealing money,  they deserve to go bust. 

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If you cancel then you will lose your deposit and other monies as per the contract terms and conditions.

 

If the hire company cancels then the situation is more complicated and the terms and conditions on cancellation will apply as well as UK law.

 

This advice from Martin Lewis is pretty good.  I guess you booked direct and, if so, you can ignore the package holiday section and scroll down to the section about holiday cottages which is appropriate in this instance.

Edited by Hotspur
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18 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

Nick,

 

Isn't it theft is a company keeps money that they are not legally entitled too? They should have a contingency in place. I'm tired of hearing the airlines bleat on about this. They take the money when the good times are here, buying ither airlines, paying shareholders and senior managers loads of dosh.

 

If a business can only work by stealing money,  they deserve to go bust. 

Yes to all that. But when you say “should”, that is fine but they don’t. If they did, they would be uncompetitive and go out of business compared to all the other companies that don’t. Unless it was a legal requirement, which it currently isn’t. Oh and the definition of theft includes the intention to permanently deprive the rightful owner of whatever it is. In the main these companies are not doing that - if they offer to rebook later, give vouchers etc

 

In my line of work (helicopter passenger transport) I was heavily involved in various safety projects but something someone once said to me stuck: “there is no point in being the safest helicopter operator if it makes you go bust”.

 

I would be delighted if all companies were required to pay their advanced booking fess / deposits into an escrow account and only able to withdraw from it once the service had been provided, but for the time being that ain’t how the world works.

Edited by nicknorman
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We had a long weekend break booked in Snowdonia to celebrate my daughters 40th birthday. I had booked us all in at Zip world to do the big zip wire and the quarry carts, Daughter had kennels booked for her dogs for the day we were there and we had an Airbnb nearby. 

 

The Airbnb simply refunded without question. I felt dreadful having to cancel because I know that it was an individual who was losing a booking she was unlikely to replace. I wrote a message to her and she replied with an understanding message. 

The Zip world were different and it tooks weeks of emails back and forth. They initially said they would refund the quarry carts but not the zip then changed their mind and refused both. Eventually I have managed to go back to Red Letter Days who have issued a replacement voucher to the value of the zip wire for me to spend on any of their experiences and it is does not expire for 10 months. By-a-gift refunded me for the quarry carts.

 

Meanwhile a surprise trip for my 60th that we should have been on right now - he got a refund for the accommodation which I think was Airbnb but Eurotunnel say they need us to get conformation from France that they won't let us in before they will consider a refund - they want to defer the ticket 

 

so somehow when we just want to go boating we need to fit in a red letter day and a trip across the channel before they expire! - or we do! 

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22 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

In my line of work (helicopter passenger transport) I was heavily involved in various safety projects but something someone once said to me stuck: “there is no point in being the safest helicopter operator if it makes you go 

Very wise words. I'll remember that one.

 

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2 hours ago, Rooffy said:

Anglo Welsh. Back in November I booked a week in May from their Bath base, paid £336 deposit, for our annual lads’ trip (45th one!). Of six crew, 3 are over eighty (2 of whom are now classed as critically vulnerable to covid), one youngster in his fifties is similarly classed due to a heart condition though a mere sixty. The two others could well survive the trip, up Caen Hill and onward a bit, then return. Then covid struck and the pubs and restaurants were shut. This would mean considerable problems for us. So I told Anglo Welsh by email that we wished to cancel and due to our particular circumstances requested return of my deposit. Response came there none. Then canal travel was stopped anyway. So I asked again for my deposit and received an identical response.

 

What is on offer from Anglo Welsh is deferment. In other words they assume your dates are flexible and they decide to defer, we don’t. Meanwhile they retain the deposit. At some future date, possibly next year, if our gallant crew survive intact and if Anglo Welsh do not go bust meantime, we will presumably be told we can book again. We may be in no condition to do so.

 

I am not asking anyone to support my position on this or otherwise. I am just saying beware of hiring until there is some certainty that you will be able to have your trip when you want it and before you die.

 

As far as I can see the company have abided totally by their Terms & Conditions because it was YOU that cancelled, so they are entitled to keep the deposit. If you had waited for them to cancel you would have been entitled to all your money back. The fact that they have offered you something exceeds their legal requirements.
I know of several people who have been caught in the same way with other holiday companies.

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The world has stopped and with it so has cashflow - I have a client who is in the airline catering industry, the last invoice is unpaid and they're all on furlough so the chances of it being paid anytime soon are minimal. I'm not going to starve, the rent is paid, the car MOT'd and taxed and there is food on the table so I'm not sweating it. 

 

With regards to the hire, I think similar was offered in the foot and mouth crisis, as I transferred from May one year to Easter the next (and I have a feeling I changed bases too) - that was Anglo-Welsh.

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15 hours ago, john6767 said:

It is I think what much of the travel/leisure industry are doing.  We had our flight to Italy cancelled by them when Italy locked down in early March and they cancelled the flights due to government banning travel to Italy.  Whist we got hotel and other stuff refunded, Jet2 are hanging on to our £750 flight money.  You cant even talk to them now as they have closed their call centre.  Not expecting to see the money to be honest, they will probably go bust and take our money with them.

Don't despair.  We had our Jet2 flights to Portugal in April cancelled, and were told by email that they would be contacting people in order of departure to discuss their options.  I was sceptical but sure enough we had a phone call 1 week before the departure date to say had we chosen alternative dates or would we like a credit voucher valid for 6 months. I explained that due to health issues we were not in a position to book another trip and certainly not within 6 months, whereupon the extremely pleasant young lady said "Oh, you'll be wanting a refund then" and processed it there and then. The money was back on our credit card the next day. 

 

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