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I'm considering the idea of moving from GRP to either steel or aluminium before long, looking at something in the 30-45ft range and would just like a bit of advice please about where to look and where not to look. In terms of requirements, I'd class myself as a fairly intense boater; my Norman gets a bit of a bruising whenever it heads south on the Shroppie because of the by-wash weirs, so would an aluminium sea otter be ok for this sort of thing? I'd like something to use all year round, so with thin ice-breaking and decent insulation as considerations. Also, it'll have to be second hand, so any current or ex boat-builders out there to either consider or avoid? I'm thinking anything from 2000 onwards and would steel measurements of 8-6-4mm be ok even for a boat say 20 years old?

 

Couple of other questions...my Norman has a 2017 Beta 20 engine in it, with only 1300 hours on the clock, so I'm thinking of taking this engine out of my cruiser and putting it in a narrowboat. Would a 20hp engine be sufficient power for say a 40-45ft boat?

 

Finally, can a steel or aluminium boat at around 40ft in length be trailed? That's one big plus point with my Norman!

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited by Philip
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1 hour ago, Philip said:

I'm considering the idea of moving from GRP to either steel or aluminium before long, looking at something in the 30-45ft range and would just like a bit of advice please about where to look and where not to look. In terms of requirements, I'd class myself as a fairly intense boater; my Norman gets a bit of a bruising whenever it heads south on the Shroppie because of the by-wash weirs, so would an aluminium sea otter be ok for this sort of thing? I'd like something to use all year round, so with thin ice-breaking and decent insulation as considerations. Also, it'll have to be second hand, so any current or ex boat-builders out there to either consider or avoid? I'm thinking anything from 2000 onwards and would steel measurements of 8-6-4mm be ok even for a boat say 20 years old?

 

Couple of other questions...my Norman has a 2017 Beta 20 engine in it, with only 1300 hours on the clock, so I'm thinking of taking this engine out of my cruiser and putting it in a narrowboat. Would a 20hp engine be sufficient power for say a 40-45ft boat?

 

Finally, can a steel or aluminium boat at around 40ft in length be trailed? That's one big plus point with my Norman!

 

Thanks

 

 

Buy a good Sea Otter bit pricey but it sounds like its what you "want" and they have a cult following so will always sell.

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2 hours ago, Philip said:

.my Norman has a 2017 Beta 20 engine in it, with only 1300 hours on the clock, so I'm thinking of taking this engine out of my cruiser and putting it in a narrowboat.

Without an engine the Norman would have essentially scrap value and be hard to sell. You'd need to look at selling costs of Norman's with good engines, as yours is now and with no, or dead engines, and see if that is more than, or less than the value of the Beta.

Jen

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50 minutes ago, Halsey said:

Buy a good Sea Otter bit pricey but it sounds like its what you "want" and they have a cult following so will always sell.

Thanks. Capable of being put on a trailer would be nice but just after something that would withstand heavy usage and through lots of locks etc.

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Without an engine the Norman would have essentially scrap value and be hard to sell. You'd need to look at selling costs of Norman's with good engines, as yours is now and with no, or dead engines, and see if that is more than, or less than the value of the Beta.

Jen

I've wondered about having an outboard fitted to my Norman if I decide to sell, seems outboard motors on cruisers are more popular anyway now, since hardly any new built cruisers are fitted with inboard diesel engines.

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You would need some serious kit to trail a 40 foot steel boat ?

Yes 20 hp is tons for power. 8 6 4 is ample. I sold my 1981 colecraft 664 years ago and its still going without major plating. When I bought it aged 20 its worst bits were 5.7 mil. 

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I have done the opposite to what you are proposing.Sold my narrowboat to go back to GRP probably for different reasons to you.

My narrowboat was built of 6,5,3mm in 1978 and the hull is still sound.It depends how well a boat is looked after for durability.If it is taken out of the water and any rust pitting seen to and blacked regularly it will probably be good for many many years,but if neglected it could rust through in a short time.That's why a survey is advisable when buying a used boat.

Transporting a 40ft narrowboat by road is a job for a specialist haulier.

Fitting your Normans engine in a narrowboat you buy,is in my humble view ,a pointless excercise.Will  your Norman's engine need new engine bearers?

Will the gearbox on the narrowboat be suitable?

Will the prop be suitable?

It sounds like a load of work and expense for for what? Buy a decent narrowboat with a decent engine and enjoy it.

Your Norman will be a much more saleable proposition with it's low hours diesel engine rather than an outboard.

I assume it has a z drive,so there will be additional work constructing an out board well in the transom or the fitting of metal structure to the transom to take an outboard.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

@haggis maybe Ian can say something about dragging a Sea Otter about

No doubt Iain will chip in about trailing a Sea Otter but in my opinion, only the 26 and at a pinch 30 foot ones can be put on a trailer and towed. 

Sea Otters are very robust and we have found ours no more "fragile" than a steel boat would be. They are built of petty thick aluminium. There is a Sea Otters Owners site where you will get all the info you may want and also second hand boats come up  for  sale quite often  - they are no longer built. Although the site is for Sea Otter owners, I think if you ask you will be able to join. Sea Otters tend to keep their value well and are often more "pricey" than a steel boat of similar size.

 

haggis 

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Thanks for the advice and info. Would like something that is 'user friendly' (currently I do single-handed boating, but would like something that is potentially decent enough if there's two of us). So that's why I'm veering towards 40ft rather than 30 and with a shower etc.

 

Do sea otters offer good insulation? There's a couple on Apollo duck that have webasto heating - better off going for one with a stove, whether it's steel or aluminium? 

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17 minutes ago, Philip said:

Thanks for the advice and info. Would like something that is 'user friendly' (currently I do single-handed boating, but would like something that is potentially decent enough if there's two of us). So that's why I'm veering towards 40ft rather than 30 and with a shower etc.

 

Do sea otters offer good insulation? There's a couple on Apollo duck that have webasto heating - better off going for one with a stove, whether it's steel or aluminium? 

I think most sea otters have diesel heating in them but there is nothing to say you couldnt have a stove in one. They, particularly the shorter ones are more aimed at leisure boaters in the main, but there is nothing to say you cant live on one of course, plenty do. Finding room for a stove might be an issue depending on layout, the furniture is normally/often 'built in', a bit like a motorhome.

 

You mention breaking thin ice in your OP. One (big) advantage of a sea otter is they do not need blacking and hence ice breaking wont damage your hull covering. It is said that they are painted purely for cosmetic purposes and they could actually be used completely un painted, unlike a steel narrow boat.

 

They also have a very clever water filled ballast system which makes them even  lighter when out the water. I really like them.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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If you are still thinking of trailing the new boat, then what tow vehicle are you planning to use? Check max weights, trailer widths, lengths and license required very carefully. It is something coppers are keen to enforce and checks do take place. Be careful modifying the boat. For example, a stove, hearth, flue etc could easily add 80 to 100kg to the overall weight. Similarly, fuel  and potable water tanks full vs empty. The trail boats I've seen out and about have all been small, 20' or so, GRP, or Aluminium, with water ballast tanks that can be emptied for towing. People were using big 4x4's to tow them. Water is less than half the density of concrete ballast, so the ballast tanks take up more space.

 

If you decide that trailing isn't going to be possible for the size of boat you now want, then a lot, but not all of the advantages of aluminium disappear and steel should be considered again.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you are still thinking of trailing the new boat, then what tow vehicle are you planning to use? Check max weights, trailer widths, lengths and license required very carefully. It is something coppers are keen to enforce and checks do take place. Be careful modifying the boat. For example, a stove, hearth, flue etc could easily add 80 to 100kg to the overall weight. Similarly, fuel  and potable water tanks full vs empty. The trail boats I've seen out and about have all been small, 20' or so, GRP, or Aluminium, with water ballast tanks that can be emptied for towing. People were using big 4x4's to tow them. Water is less than half the density of concrete ballast, so the ballast tanks take up more space.

 

If you decide that trailing isn't going to be possible for the size of boat you now want, then a lot, but not all of the advantages of aluminium disappear and steel should be considered again.

 

Jen

I agree with this.

 

If the prime aim is to live on one then the longer the better which obviously means heavier amd less trailerable.

 

The only real advantage you are then left with is the lack of the need for regular blacking.

 

However if the prime aim is leisure boating and trailability then a short Sea Otter are serious contenders particularly if you want metal over GRP.

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To be fair, the only reason I mentioned to trail was to be able to cruise the Montgomery Canal again, but now I think, I seem to remember the slipway at Welshpool can only take boats up to either 27 or 30 ft anyway. So pointless if I'm going above 30ft.

 

I'm thinking comfort and solid durability over 'go anywhere' to be honest.  .

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2 hours ago, Philip said:

Do sea otters offer good insulation? There's a couple on Apollo duck that have webasto heating - better off going for one with a stove, whether it's steel or aluminium? 

Sea Otter 41 on Apollo Duck at the moment has a Hobbit stove fitted.

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/sea-otter-41/619185

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On the towing bit : anything over the 31 or 32 ft SeaOtters aren't designed to be towed, and it's very difficult, if not impossible,  to keep the weight of the 31/32 footer below 3500kg. When the 31' first came out, Ray claimed it was under the 3500kg limit, but that was in show trim, with no water, fuel, gas, or boat and personal gear aboard. Even the 26' is a serious tow. We have a two axle trailer, and the tyre loading is pretty near the maximum. One tyre problem is inflating them : most garage machines cut out well below the pressure needed. (I run them at 80 p.s.i.)

 

The insulation on the 26' (and I'd assume the 31', although I've no personal experience of them) is not great,  abo an inch of expanded polystyrene. It's a lot better in the 40' and above ones, though.

Edited by Iain_S
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Not planning to do anything just yet, want to see how various things pan out over next few months before deciding on making any changes boat wise. A little envious though of the greater home comforts of a narrowboat over a cruiser!

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