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Boat stuck on sunken boat, Sunbury


Dave123

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39 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Went for a walk past there today. Sunk widebeam still there. Looks like about 3' of water over it and it is right across the main channel. lots of residentials moored up in the reach above the lock maybe it was one of those that came adrift. I guess there will be an argument now about who pays to get it up. Photo from Surrey Bank

sunk.JPG.c194680563989829245fb990d7b9f3e5.JPG

Which is the wreck buoy ?

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None of them! Since it is not an isolated danger being across a fair portion of the fairway I suppose it depends on which side you should pass. Near the bank you might go aground otherwise you need to pass near the weir. None of the marks shown have any navigational significance. It should be a black and red buoy with two black spheres for an isolated danger otherwise it should have Red cans upstream and downstream if you are to pass next to the weir, green cones if you have to pass on the Surrey bank side  only and if you can pass on either side both red and green up and downstream of the obstruction. In terms of navigation I am sympathetic to the motor boater who went aground as orange and yellow bouys are often used as sailing marks.

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Sunbury lock is closed anyway so nobody should be going there unless on the way to the pub but then that is also closed !

 

I suppose access to RSW at Molesey could be an argument for using Sunbury lock to be fair. Next pumpout upstream is quite a long way away. 

 

In fact a quick back of the envelope calculation suggests to me that unless a marina is offering pumpout to non residents then anyone moored above Sunbury and below Walton would have to travel through Sh, Ch, PH, BW, OW and Ro locks to access the pumpout below Boveney lock. 

 

Lock names shortened. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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11 hours ago, magnetman said:

Sunbury lock is closed anyway so nobody should be going there unless on the way to the pub but then that is also closed !

 

I suppose access to RSW at Molesey could be an argument for using Sunbury lock to be fair. Next pumpout upstream is quite a long way away. 

 

In fact a quick back of the envelope calculation suggests to me that unless a marina is offering pumpout to non residents then anyone moored above Sunbury and below Walton would have to travel through Sh, Ch, PH, BW, OW and Ro locks to access the pumpout below Boveney lock. 

 

Lock names shortened. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or chuck it it the river at night. :(

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15 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

.in terms of navigation I am sympathetic to the motor boater who went aground as orange and yellow bouys are often used as sailing marks.

Sort of agree however Sunbury lock has been announced as closed so where was the boat going? There is nothing there except the pub which is obviously also closed. 

 

I suppose it's possible they just didn't know anything about it but with the current situation coming so soon after red boards came off I would have thought most boat owners would check for any announcements or problems before moving the boat. 

 

As the owner of EA Thames registered boats I was sent an email about Sunbury lock being closed some time ago. 

 

I would associate yellow buoys on the Thames with anchors laid out to hold dredgers in place. 

 

The vessel is just outside the Sunbury EA depot/boatyard so it's more than likely that they just took the buoys from a dredger which was stationed there at the time. 

 

Edited by magnetman
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14 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

None of them!

Looks like an absolute textbook case of what Cardinal Buoys are meant for! One at each end advising to keep N/S/E/W as appropriate (I don't know whether the river runs North / South or East / West at that point)

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The following text is included in the EA river conditions web page. To be fair this could have been added as a result of the vessel grounding on the sunk craft. 

 

Avoid yellow and orange buoys as they mark hazards. For further advice, ask the local duty lock keeper.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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I don't think I've seen many cardinal marks on non tidal rivers except on the lower Rhine. EA obviously don't know what they are doing. If you have marks in the main channel they need to be navigation marks. You would have thought that being right by the main depot they could have found some proper marks and orange marks are very common on the river for use with sailing or rowing courses.

37 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Avoid yellow and orange buoys as they mark hazards. For further advice, ask the local duty lock keeper.

This just shows the total lack of any sense  within EA. How are you supposed to know if such a mark is coming up? Try and find a lock keeper if you can. Going back to the original marking with one mark I would have gone exactly where the cruiser went keeping clear of the mark and weir.

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From twitter, still not 100% clear to me where you should go (other than turning around and going back to Walton!!)

Kingston River User  group  Steve Collins  @KingstonRUG 
https://twitter.com/KingstonRUG/status/1260919168095924224


The EA have responded to river users’ prompting and added some more marker buoys to the wreck at Sunbury Weir. The river closure at this point remains in force.

 

EX-vTEoWkAsllNU.jpg

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3 hours ago, 1st ade said:

Looks like an absolute textbook case of what Cardinal Buoys are meant for!

Mike has answered this, but cardinal buoys are not for use on narrow waterways such as the Thames. Apart from anything else there is no requirement for boats to have a compass as compass bearings are pretty much irrelevant there. There is a very simple system of channel markers and isolated hazard marks which Mike describes which relate to the direction of flow of the river, and all river users should be familiar with those.

 

Tam

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So what happens if there is an obstruction which can not be safely navigated past? 

 

The river gets closed. Which is what happened. 

 

Nobody should be navigating there regardless of buoyage or lack of. 

 

It should have been marked but equally nobody should have been navigating there. 

 

I wonder how it would go in a court case. For example if the skipper of the vessel navigating had been injured. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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10 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

There is a very simple system of channel markers and isolated hazard marks which Mike describes which relate to the direction of flow of the river, and all river users should be familiar with those.

 

Tam

The way I remember the red and green is that they are arranged assuming someone coming inward bound on a river would be unfamiliar with it. 

 

So the green stays on the green side of the boat going inland but going out again, when more familiar with the river due to already having navigated up it,they go on the other side. 

3 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Many people will not have easy access to internet and stoppages really do need to be marked where and when they occur, not on a web page.

 

Tam

 

That's true which is why the Cookham lock closure is written on a notice at Boulters lock and I imagine Marlow as well. 

 

That doesn't help boats starting from half way between locks though. 

 

How would you suggest disseminating the information to boat owners who do have not already passed through a lock ? 

 

I think in this instance a dinghy anchored in the River with a notice on it, like they use for regattas, would be quite sensible. In fact just tie it to the boat itself or stick magnets onto it and tie the dinghy to the magnets. 

 

Dinghy is more visible than a buoy and a notice saying "River closed" might get the message across?

Edited by magnetman
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5 hours ago, 1st ade said:

Looks like an absolute textbook case of what Cardinal Buoys are meant for! One at each end advising to keep N/S/E/W as appropriate (I don't know whether the river runs North / South or East / West at that point)

The is what the EA say they use to mark wrecks on the non tidal thames (isolated danger)

 

image.png.08d9b731e4936e77dfdbe35a2eec6de8.png

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It's slightly easier to remember buoys and navigation marks with the continental concept of right bank and left bank - right bank is on your right as you stand looking downsteam, and the RED Buoys are associated with the RIGHT Bank (and in France I could tell trainees that the GREEN Buoyage went together with the rive (bank) GAUCHE too ?). The problem here is they just seem to have thrown in whatever came immediately to hand. Given that they do know of the danger that could leave them liable in any argument.

 

They don't seem to have "Closed to Navigation" or "Works Ahead" signage as far as I can see, but a line of red? buoys across the river with some associated notice saying the lock is closed (or whatever) should do the trick.

 

Tam

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Given that it was not the EA who performed the attempted salvage of the vessel which led to the sinking in the first place perhaps it was also not the EA who installed the buoys. 

 

This would all be quite straightforward to establish but I suspect the EA have covered themselves by announcing the closure of Sunbury lock via normally accepted communication methods. 

 

I think this happened before the Covid thing kicked in. It was due to red boards on the River and a sunken craft which would not be able to be raised until conditions allowed then the Covid thing happened. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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33 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Given that it was not the EA who performed the attempted salvage of the vessel which led to the sinking in the first place perhaps it was also not the EA who installed the buoys. 

Is that not the EA tug Falconbrook pulling the vessel off the weir?

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It was Falconbrook. 

I was told it was sold off to a contractor a while ago. 

 

I think this is true as the cabin is now blue not green which is the colour of EA tugs. 

 

As I understand it the only Tug EA currently own in that area is the Ver. 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

 

 

Is that not the EA tug Falconbrook pulling the vessel off the weir?

It certainly is Falconwood.  Perhaps EA sub it out to a contractor.

Oops, cross posted with Magnetman.

Edited by Flyboy
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52 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Given that it was not the EA who performed the attempted salvage of the vessel which led to the sinking in the first place perhaps it was also not the EA who installed the buoys. 

 

This would all be quite straightforward to establish but I suspect the EA have covered themselves by announcing the closure of Sunbury lock via normally accepted communication methods. 

 

I think this happened before the Covid thing kicked in. It was due to red boards on the River and a sunken craft which would not be able to be raised until conditions allowed then the Covid thing happened. 

 

 

 

 

Surly EA are responsibly for buoyage on the river regardless who sank the wreck 

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I'm not certain about that from an insurance point of view. 

 

It's definitely a bit complicated due to the sinking happening during the red boards conditions which were followed almost immediately by social distancing laws from the government due to the Covid 19 outbreak. 

 

These social distancing obligations may well have made it technically impossible for the EA to send a gang out to mark the wreck once the red boards were down. 

 

Of course the main point is that nobody should have been navigating a boat at the time due to the "lock down" which despite its name does not indicate moving a vessel down hill. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Of course the main point is that nobody should have been navigating a boat at the time due to the "lock down" which despite its name does not indicate moving a vessel down hill. 

 

 

? well punned.

 

Although it would be foolish and probably rather pointless to be moving a boat there at this time, the EA can't go quite as far as banning all movement (other than by reason of works or water levels making it impossible) as there is a public Right of Navigation. Their notice quoted earlier in the thread says "The restrictions aim to minimise contact to slow the spread and in line with this we have switched powered locks along the non-tidal Thames to hand-wind self-service only to protect our staff and river users. The restrictions also aim to stop all non-essential travel in any event and so it is not expected that there will be many, if any, movements during this time."

 

As you noted just now, the guy may not have read anything on the EA website and have been moored in the pound above Sunbury. I guess there are explanations for how it got there on Facebook or whatever but I don't go there.

 

Tam

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