Boat stuck on sunken boat, Sunbury

[Naughty Cal]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

There's me thinking there is a recognised buoyage system to mark wrecks. If the EA can't lay their hands on a suitably shaped/coloured/marked buoy they should have at least marked both ends of the hazard. Anyway its probably end of little consequence, would the gin palace owner know what a wreck or even a middle ground buoy looks like?

A 1980s Princess Sedan is hardly a gin palace! 

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

There's me thinking there is a recognised buoyage system to mark wrecks. If the EA can't lay their hands on a suitably shaped/coloured/marked buoy they should have at least marked both ends of the hazard. Anyway its probably end of little consequence, would the gin palace owner know what a wreck or even a middle ground buoy looks like?

Probably more likely for a gin palace owner than a narrowboat owner

[Bee]

If I had been steering the cruiser I would probably seen the buoy and assumed that it referred to a sand spit or sunken something or other attached to the bank. I too would have gone over the top of the boat. Of course it might look different from the river but from the photo it looks like a rubbish bit of buoyage.

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

If I had been steering the cruiser I would probably seen the buoy and assumed that it referred to a sand spit or sunken something or other attached to the bank. I too would have gone over the top of the boat. Of course it might look different from the river but from the photo it looks like a rubbish bit of buoyage.

Agreed,  though there were announcements for several weeks before saying that the river was not navigable at Sunbury...

[zenataomm]

3 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Agreed,  though there were announcements for several weeks before saying that the river was not navigable at Sunbury...

1)Was the skipper of said cruiser moving on a closed navigation?

If so, end of short unnecessary debate.

 

If not, 2) were there signs warning obstruction in centre of navigation?  Such as we see on the cut.

3) Who was responsible for placing the buoys? 4) Did they follow the procedure?

That's all that needs investigating. 

If the answer to 1) Is Yes then there's your culpability.

Otherwise all that's required is to understand the answers to questions 2-4)

Nothing else is relevant at this stage, and only clouds the case.

[Scholar Gypsy]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-restrictions-due-to-coronavirus-2020-lock-restriction-notice/government-restrictions-due-to-coronavirus-2020-lock-restriction-notice

Quote

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, zenataomm said:

1)Was the skipper of said cruiser moving on a closed navigation?

If so, end of short unnecessary debate.

 

If not, 2) were there signs warning obstruction in centre of navigation?  Such as we see on the cut.

3) Who was responsible for placing the buoys? 4) Did they follow the procedure?

That's all that needs investigating. 

If the answer to 1) Is Yes then there's your culpability.

Otherwise all that's required is to understand the answers to questions 2-4)

Nothing else is relevant at this stage, and only clouds the case.

I would suggest that there is no power to allow the Thames to be closed to navigation. Yes the skipper probably has broken the Covid based rules but I very much doubt the ancient right of navigation can be extinguished with out an act to specifically do it.

[zenataomm]

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would suggest that there is no power to allow the Thames to be closed to navigation. Yes the skipper probably has broken the Covid based rules but I very much doubt the ancient right of navigation can be extinguished with out an act to specifically do it.

If that's the case Tony, then my questions 2-4 apply.

[MartinC]

8 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would suggest that there is no power to allow the Thames to be closed to navigation. Yes the skipper probably has broken the Covid based rules but I very much doubt the ancient right of navigation can be extinguished with out an act to specifically do it.

The Regulations made under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 do not restrict navigation but do , at present, severely restrict movement of people. Unless the navigator falls within falls in the very limited "allowed" category the boat can navigate but not the navigator. Remote control?

[Dave123]

On a slight tangent. The sabotaged locks at Abingdon and Sandford demonstrate the stupidity of some individuals but also how unwise it was of the EA to try and take enforcement of the covid19 laws into their own hands by making locks hand wind. (aside from the other point that making boats on necessary essential journeys spend longer at the lockside and touch more surfaces is counterproductive). They should simply have said essential journeys only and that boaters obviously contravening this would be reported etc rather than making lockies have to prevent idiots from moving themselves and taking on an enforcement role. The vandalised locks were an obvious product of this approach.

[Scholar Gypsy]

2 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

On a slight tangent. The sabotaged locks at Abingdon and Sandford demonstrate the stupidity of some individuals but also how unwise it was of the EA to try and take enforcement of the covid19 laws into their own hands by making locks hand wind. (aside from the other point that making boats on necessary essential journeys spend longer at the lockside and touch more surfaces is counterproductive). They should simply have said essential journeys only and that boaters obviously contravening this would be reported etc rather than making lockies have to prevent idiots from moving themselves and taking on an enforcement role. The vandalised locks were an obvious product of this approach.

And on a tangent to your tangent, I have never understood why you don't need a key to operate the locks on the Thames in user operated mode.

The electrically operated locks on the Nene and Ouse system (and those on CRT waterways, ditto swing and lift bridges) require a key of some sort to operate (as do the few remaining hand wind guillotines on the Nene), and that system seems to work well.

[David Mack]

16 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

 but also how unwise it was of the EA to try and take enforcement of the covid19 laws into their own hands by making locks hand wind.

 

When I first boated the Thames all of the locks were hand wind only if you wanted to pass through outside the lockkeeper's duty hours. We looked on enviously at the trip boat crews who had a key so they could pass through out of hours with powered gate and paddle operation.

[magnetman]

I wonder what the problem with abingdon and Sandford is. Is it sabotage of the police boxes or opening of the actual pedestal? Some of the pedestals have a changeover system to turn off the hand wind but that would not necessarily turn on lock keeper power. So you could end up with nothing working at all. Lock keeper power being activated from inside the lock office or the police box. 

 

Or perhaps it was gates left open a little bit like you can do on canal locks then lock emptied/filled. As they are not balance beam locks this would result in damage or detachment of the gate ram(s) as the gates pulled together. 

 

An obvious weakness with hand wind and ignorant people is that the gate sensors are no longer operational so paddles at other end can be opened without the other gates closed. 

 

Bad news for a hydraulic ram actuated gate closing system. They have a weak link which once broken disables the gate.  At least the public power takes care of this by using several different types of sensors which are -usually- pretty reliable so in 99% of cases it is not possible to break the rams off. 

 

Public power has been around for so long that a lot of people will never have used the wheels before so could easily get it wrong. 

 

Another problem with hand wind is people only open it enough for their boat and leave it hanging on the rams. If another boat collides with either partially open gate you get problems. Gates should always be fully opened but as they are so slow and tedious to wind people just don't do that. 

 

Public power needs to go back on asap or more damage will occur. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by magnetman

[Dave123]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Public power needs to go back on asap or more damage will occur. 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly! Hopefully increasing pressure to address the obvious discrepancy between allowing canoes etc but not day trips on narrowboats or other powered boats will force them to permit more navigation. Especially on the Thames day trips are easily possible and satisfy current rules if you don't stay overnight. 

Regarding the damage, I heard that someone vandalised the handwind control wheel at Sandford so it is available for use with the power on but not for handwind. Abingdon gates were rammed damaging the walkway but expected to be fixed next week.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Dave123

[OldGoat]

My sources say that 'a boat' rammed the top gate at Abingdon and damaged the walkway and the ram. I could extract no information about  Sandford, thus that may be a bit more serious.

[Dave123]

Sandford is still available for transit I heard...But by prior booking only as handwind can't be used. It was just the handwind part that was vandalised there.

[Dave123]

20 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

And on a tangent to your tangent, I have never understood why you don't need a key to operate the locks on the Thames in user operated mode.

The electrically operated locks on the Nene and Ouse system (and those on CRT waterways, ditto swing and lift bridges) require a key of some sort to operate (as do the few remaining hand wind guillotines on the Nene), and that system seems to work well.

Interesting point. Possibly with resident lock keepers at each it was never felt that security and vandalism was a likely problem on the Thames? None of the Nene locks ever had resident keepers did they? I'm not that familiar with the G Ouse.

[Scholar Gypsy]

You're certainly right about the Nene. The lock at Northampton is occasionally manned, but the rest are in the middle of nowhere with no cottages nearby that I can think of(*). Great Ouse is similar, I think there were some lock keepers in the 1960s and 70s.  The electrification programme on both rivers is also comparatively recent, before that hand winding was the only option!

 

(* The obvious exception is Dog-in-a-Doublet).

Edited May 13, 2020 by Scholar Gypsy

[ditchcrawler]

Has the boat been pulled off and did it rip a hole in the bottom.? With the lack of rain river levels could fall 

 

[magnetman]

According to a post on the Thames forum a few days ago the Princess motor cruiser was seen being towed away so presumably no holes in it. 

[Guest]

I think people sometimes underestimate just how strong a good GRP hull can be.

 

They think they are a bit 'egg shell' in strength when in fact they are surprisingly resilient. Obviously more likey to be holed than steel but strong nonetheless.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I think people sometimes underestimate just how strong a good GRP hull can be.

 

They think they are a bit 'egg shell' in strength when in fact they are surprisingly resilient. Obviously more likey to be holed than steel but strong nonetheless.

But driving onto a submerged steel object and then being dragged off again after a few days bobbing about I think I would be concerned if it was mine 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But driving onto a submerged steel object and then being dragged off again after a few days bobbing about I think I would be concerned if it was mine 

It will definitely need checking out the water for sure.

[BWM]

On 12/05/2020 at 13:15, David Mack said:

 

When I first boated the Thames all of the locks were hand wind only if you wanted to pass through outside the lockkeeper's duty hours. We looked on enviously at the trip boat crews who had a key so they could pass through out of hours with powered gate and paddle operation.

A couple of the lock keepers would turn the power on if they thought you looked sensible enough!

[Mike Adams]

Went for a walk past there today. Sunk widebeam still there. Looks like about 3' of water over it and it is right across the main channel. lots of residentials moored up in the reach above the lock maybe it was one of those that came adrift. I guess there will be an argument now about who pays to get it up. Photo from Surrey Bank