Opinions on the Morco Primo MP6 or alternatives?

[TandC]

Hello all, 

 

I'm looking into the alternatives to the long-serving Morco 61B water heater we have onboard.   It's now getting on for 15 years old and while it continues to serve us well, it does have a delayed ignition at times leading to a small "wooof" effect... not major, but I've been looking at what the alternatives would be if we needed to replace it.  Obviously, the mounting location and hole in the roof need to be matched. 

 

As permanent liveaboards, it serves our domestic hot water for showers/washing up and gets a lot of use - which I think is probably why it has continued work so well, particularly as in Oxford we have hard water and the limescale can be a problem. 

 

So - with that in mind, anyone got any experience of swapping out for the newer Morco MP6 Prima?  Basically the same by all accounts, just a bit newer.  

 

Or there's the Forcali 6lt model which can be made to fit, but i'm not convinced on that front.

 

 

Grateful for any opinions on performance, robustness, availability of spares etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, TandC said:

Hello all, 

 

I'm looking into the alternatives to the long-serving Morco 61B water heater we have onboard.   It's now getting on for 15 years old and while it continues to serve us well, it does have a delayed ignition at times leading to a small "wooof" effect... not major, but I've been looking at what the alternatives would be if we needed to replace it.  Obviously, the mounting location and hole in the roof need to be matched. 

 

As permanent liveaboards, it serves our domestic hot water for showers/washing up and gets a lot of use - which I think is probably why it has continued work so well, particularly as in Oxford we have hard water and the limescale can be a problem. 

 

So - with that in mind, anyone got any experience of swapping out for the newer Morco MP6 Prima?  Basically the same by all accounts, just a bit newer.  

 

Or there's the Forcali 6lt model which can be made to fit, but i'm not convinced on that front.

 

 

Grateful for any opinions on performance, robustness, availability of spares etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It may be that he gas regulations have changed in the last 15 years. As liveaboards you come under the control of the GSIUR regulations which limits who can work on the gas on the boat and various other requirements (like where the heater can be fitted).

It may be worth speaking with a Boat certified GAS SAFE 'engineer' before you spend any money.

 

 

 

[TandC]

This is about the actual model - anyone got a Primo?  Any good?  What are the alternatives (considering that the space/hole isn't going to change)

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, TandC said:

This is about the actual model - anyone got a Primo?  Any good?  What are the alternatives (considering that the space/hole isn't going to change)

Fair enough.

 

Just trying to help you potentially avoid invalidating your insurance.

Only certain types can be fitted to a liveaboard boat.

On a Liveaboard boat installation can only be done by a Boat Qualified Gas Safe Engineer.

 

You go your own way, but please don't moor anywhere near me.

[TandC]

I'd appreciate any advice on the actual question:  What are the alternatives for a Morco 61B water heater on a liveaboard should it be necessary to replace it. 

 

At some point it needs replacing - as hundreds of boats have these, and hundreds still have these - some must of been replaced...  is there anyone who has had this done and if so what model water heater have they used and is it reliable etc.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

 

[Richard10002]

Looks like the Primo has been replaced.

 

However, if I were fitting a new gas water heater today, I’d probably fit a room sealed boiler, like:

 

http://www.morcoproducts.co.uk/stock-5-56/Water_Heaters/EUP11RSVERT.html

 

Not sure how it would fit the existing space.

 

Dont forget to have it fitted by a boat registered LPG gas safe fitter.

[nicknorman]

The Primo MP6 is obsolete. Like your current one, it has a pilot light. You either have to have the pilot on all the time and pay for the not insignificant gas wastage, or manually light it when you want hot water. Why not get a more modern heater with electronic ignition - no pilot light to waste gas. Greta would be pleased with you!

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just trying to help you potentially avoid invalidating your insurance.

Only certain types can be fitted to a liveaboard boat.

 

 

Really? What types of instant gas water heater can and cannot be fitted to a liveaboard boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Really? What types of instant gas water heater can and cannot be fitted to a liveaboard boat?

It depends where they are fitted, hence my comment in post #2

 

Example : bathroom, sleeping area (including 'open plan') or a cupboard adjacent to a sleeping area etc etc

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/contents/made

Edited May 2, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It depends where they are fitted, hence my comment in post #2

 

Example : bathroom, sleeping area (including 'open plan') or a cupboard adjacent to a sleeping area etc etc

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/contents/made

 

Ok but the location is a different issue than the type of instant gas water heater as per your comment in post #4

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Really? What types of instant gas water heater can and cannot be fitted to a liveaboard boat?

It depends on what standards / law you want to comply with. If you want to comply with the current BS-EN ISO standard for gas appliances on boats, which you have to in order to comply with the RCD, then you can only fit gas appliances that are approved by the manufacturer for installation in boats. As far as I know there is just the one, it is the modern Morco room-sealed. Can't remember the model number. If you want to comply with the GSIUR then I think it is less specific. Trouble is that not only the GSIUR, but also the HSE legislation, pretty much requires (without actually stating it categorically) that such an installation is carried out by a gas safe person. Of course what it actually says as a point of first principle, is that such an installation has to be carried out by a competent person. The thing is that whilst you and I might say we are competent to do it, and of course no-one will ever know if things go according to plan, if things don't go according to plan even for a reason not directly related to our "competence" then we are in deep shit because there is a strong argument to say that we weren't competent. It is like doing 80mph on an empty motorway, illegal but who is going to know or care? The answer being "only when you have an accident and kill someone."

[blackrose]

I'm pretty sure that non-room sealed water heaters can be fitted to liveaboard boats under normal BSS requirements. Finding someone suitably qualified to fit one on a liveaboard boat is another matter. I fitted my own as I'm competent. It's been checked and passed. If it caused an accident I'll be held accountable and I'm ok with that.

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm pretty sure that non-room sealed water heaters can be fitted to liveaboard boats under normal BSS requirements. Finding someone suitably qualified to fit one on a liveaboard boat is another matter. I fitted my own as I'm competent. It's been checked and passed. If it caused an accident I'll be held accountable and I'm ok with that.

Yes I think so, just not in bathrooms or with multiple outlets. But since they are not approved for installation in boats you wouldn't find any gas safe bod who was any good (ie who didn't have a career death wish) to fit it. As you say, you can do it yourself and it will probably be fine, if you are competent!)

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, blackrose said:

I'm pretty sure that non-room sealed water heaters can be fitted to liveaboard boats under normal BSS requirements. Finding someone suitably qualified to fit one on a liveaboard boat is another matter. I fitted my own as I'm competent. It's been checked and passed. If it caused an accident I'll be held accountable and I'm ok with that.

As far as I can see the BSS for private boats does not make any mention of either open-flue, or room sealed water heaters. Obviously any BSS examiner can only check the gas on a liveaboard boat if he is Boat accredited Gas-Safe registered.

 

From the BSS website :

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of  UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,

observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Does a Bubble Tester do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble tester and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

 

 

Commercial boats are very different and room sealed appliances are mandatory :

 

The provisions of this section of Part 8 in the 2002 BSS Standards are mandatory for non-private boats where applicable.

Appliances which are not room-sealed but which were installed before 3 January 2000 can continue to be used, as long as they are serviceable and in good condition.

Replacement and additional new appliances to the boat must be of the room sealed type, except for cooking appliances and, in the absence of a direct replacement, instantaneous water heaters.

To help ensure continued safe operation of an appliance any modifications or additions to an existing appliance must be performed in accordance with the manufacturer's guidelines. Defective or inappropriate components could lead to a gas leak or inefficient combustion and the production of noxious gases. [8.2]

[system 4-50]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I think so, just not in bathrooms or with multiple outlets.

Are you sure about the prohibition on multiple outlets ???

[Tony1]

As someone who is preparing to buy a liveaboard boat in July or August, I have to say that the regulatory requirements for these gas water heaters, including the one that a specialist boat-qualified gas-safe person has to do any installation work, are starting to make a new gas water heater installation look potentially a lot more expensive than I might have hoped.  

I had been pondering one of these as an alternative to running the engine every time I need hot water (depending on what systems my chosen boat eventually has), but when you factor in a flue installation, fitting the heater itself, and all the associated pipework and shenanigans, this is the sort of job I could see a qualified person asking at least a thousand quid to do, if not more. 

Does anyone have even a rough idea what the cost would be for the appropriately qualified person to install one of these gas water heaters on a boat, assuming the boat already had a gas supply to the galley area for a cooker? 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Tony1

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

Are you sure about the prohibition on multiple outlets ???

I might be getting a bit confused! All gas water heaters fitted in accordance with the BS EN ISO must be room sealed and approved for installation in boats.

For the BSS, the issue is about whether a flue is needed at all. It’s not needed for a single point water heater not feeding a bath or shower, it is for any other water heater. But it is only an advisory. Not that it being an advisory seems to stop some examiners from failing a boat due only to advisory items!