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Reduction in River licence


christophert

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Due to the current epedemic, Corona Virus, we all have been informed not to move, travel, in our Narrowboats. This is understandable as we all need to work together to stop the spread of this worrying disease.

Car insurance companies are now offering discounts to motorists during these unsettling times.  So should CRT be doing the same?  I believe so. If none of us can use the camels, then I feel we should all be offered a reduction. Since owning my boat, my licence has risen tenfold over the past decade. It is supposed to be a charity, so maybe it's a good time to be charitable.

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It's not a charity, it's a charitable trust, which confers certain business advantages.

No doubt we could all ask for discounts on car insurance, if we had one, but that reflects reduced risk for the insurance cover.

I assume the "excess" funding would be invested,in maintenance of the infrastructure, once fixed costs and salaries of key staff are taken off.

 

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6 hours ago, christophert said:

Due to the current epedemic, Corona Virus, we all have been informed not to move, travel, in our Narrowboats. This is understandable as we all need to work together to stop the spread of this worrying disease.

Car insurance companies are now offering discounts to motorists during these unsettling times.  So should CRT be doing the same?  I believe so. If none of us can use the camels, then I feel we should all be offered a reduction. Since owning my boat, my licence has risen tenfold over the past decade. It is supposed to be a charity, so maybe it's a good time to be charitable.

 

When you signed up for your licence you agreed to this :

 

 

9.1 We will do our best to keep the Waterway open for navigation, but closures may be required as a result of occasional unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or for other unavoidable reasons, we shall try to arrange our maintenance work to cause you the least disruption. This means that most work requiring closures will be done between the beginning of November and the end of March. There may be other occasions when, due to causes beyond our reasonable control, we have to close part or (exceptionally) all of the Waterway.
9.2 The Licence fees are calculated on the assumption that you will be affected by closures from time to time and accordingly refunds of Licence fees will not be made for closures as described in this Condition 9.

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6 hours ago, christophert said:

Car insurance companies are now offering discounts ... should CRT be doing the same?

The analogy doesn't hold. Insurance companies are not responsible for the upkeep of roads and infrastructure, like CaRT is.

 

6 hours ago, christophert said:

If none of us can use the camels, then I feel we should all be offered a reduction.

Are you still moored on the canal, and need it to be full of water? If you don't have a permanent mooring, are you still making use of essential services, like water, refuse and toilet disposal? And if you are, do you not need to travel on the waterway to access those essential services?

 

I might be inclined to agree with you, if all of those services (water in the cut, boater facilities) were not being continued during this time. But they are. I doubt they will be saving much money - more likely this situation will cost the CaRT money due to having to pay people without them working, extra communications, extra PPE and so forth. But any money saved will go into the canals that we all enjoy and pay for.

 

In general I find the licenses to be astoundingly cheap relative to the size of the waterway network and the cost, complexity and few opportunities for economies of scale. In general (not Covid related) I'd actually support an increase in the license fees to pay for even better maintenance, perhaps even restoration of some of the disused waterways.

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7 hours ago, christophert said:

Since owning my boat, my licence has risen tenfold over the past decade.

Really, mine hasn't and I doubt if anyone elses has.  More like 30%. in the last 10 years.

Edited by Flyboy
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50 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

Both Belgium and France  are offering an extension to the licence period or a reduction (respectively) but you really would'nt expect that in rip off Britain now would you.

? You realy are a bitter old chap arnt. you. Why quote some foreign country? We are not in some foreign country nor do we want to be. 2016 was worse for u than 2020, how sad is that. 

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16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

? You realy are a bitter old chap arnt. you. Why quote some foreign country? We are not in some foreign country nor do we want to be. 2016 was worse for u than 2020, how sad is that. 

 

Strange 'init' how folks can cherry pick what facts they want to support their 'arguments' without taking in the 'whole'.

 

In 2019 the average UK salary was £37000

In 2019 the average salary in Belgium was £35,000 (Euro 3,300 / month)

 

Someone earning up to £37,000 in the UK pays income tax at 20%, whilst, in Belgium, that same person on the same salary would be paying income tax at 50% 

 

No wonder they need cheap licences, their disposable income is a fraction of the UKs !

 

UK Income tax rates :

Taxable income (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Rate of tax
£0 - £11,500 0%
£11,501 - £45,000 20% (basic rate)
£45,001 - £150,000 40% (higher rate)
Over £150,000 45% (additional rate)

 

Belgium income tax rates :

 

Belgian income tax bands Belgian tax rate
Up to €13,250 25%
€13,250–€23,390 40%
€23,390–€40,480 45%
€40,480+

50%

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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19 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

? You realy are a bitter old chap arnt. you. Why quote some foreign country? We are not in some foreign country nor do we want to be. 2016 was worse for u than 2020, how sad is that. 

less of the old please

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The canals are still full of water to keep your boat floating, that's what you are paying for.

CRT income from boating makes up a smaller percentage of total income every year. At some stage CRT will say "boating is just more trouble than its worth, lets concentrate on cycling". Asking for a refund on your licence just brings this day closer.

 

.................Dave

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7 hours ago, christophert said:

Since owning my boat, my licence has risen tenfold over the past decade.

Same boat, same licence, but with tenfold increase over 10 years?

 

Really?

 

Please tell us what the boat is, what you are paying now, and what you reckon you were paying 10 years ago!

I think you will find you are wrong, (by quite a lot!).

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34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Strange 'init' how folks can cherry pick what facts they want to support their 'arguments' without taking in the 'whole'.

 

In 2019 the average UK salary was £37000

In 2019 the average salary in Belgium was £35,000 (Euro 3,300 / month)

 

Someone earning up to £37,000 in the UK pays income tax at 20%, whilst, in Belgium, that same person on the same salary would be paying income tax at 50% 

 

No wonder they need cheap licences, their disposable income is a fraction of the UKs !

 

UK Income tax rates :

Taxable income (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Rate of tax
£0 - £11,500 0%
£11,501 - £45,000 20% (basic rate)
£45,001 - £150,000 40% (higher rate)
Over £150,000 45% (additional rate)

 

Belgium income tax rates :

 

Belgian income tax bands Belgian tax rate
Up to €13,250 25%
€13,250–€23,390 40%
€23,390–€40,480 45%
€40,480+

50%

 

That’s simply a product of the different tax philosophies of the UK compared to most of Europe, and beyond, and the affect that has on direct costs for products and services. The UK likes to shift the tax burden from the general taxpayer to the specific user.

 

It’s not necessarily better or worse, just different. On my many visits to the nearer parts of Europe I’ve never got the impression we have levels of disposable income they don’t have in real terms.

 

The whole point of the creation of CRT was to make the shift of the point of subsidy and it’s probably why the UK won’t extend licence periods. It’s not of primary importance to the UK economy.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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To make it fair to all, then all people who are moored in Marinas should get a refund as they are not using the canal system, but the live aboards who are still using the system so they should not get a refund 

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19 minutes ago, Tonka said:

To make it fair to all, then all people who are moored in Marinas should get a refund as they are not using the canal system, but the live aboards who are still using the system so they should not get a refund 

That's a ridiculous suggestion. I would love to only pay when I go out of the marina but I know that should that happen the canals will soon go into decline and eventually be shut down.

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32 minutes ago, Tonka said:

To make it fair to all, then all people who are moored in Marinas should get a refund as they are not using the canal system, but the live aboards who are still using the system so they should not get a refund 

There was a proposal in 2005 (I think) that boats without a home mooring should be paying 2.5x the 'base' licence fee, but for some reason it seemed to 'wither and die'.

 

Extracts :

 

2.2. Boat users also impose significant variable costs on BW (i.e. costs that vary with the level of usage)—for example, operating locks creates wear and tear and uses water.  Cruising generates wash that slowly damages and erodes banks, both of which result in BW incurring additional costs in the long run.   BW also provides services such as such as water, sewage disposal, refuse collection, etc. which are used more by some boating customers than others.     
2.3. In light of this cost structure, BW has two main principles that underlie its charging structure. 
(a) Cost impact—usage of the waterway network results in BW incurring additional costs. BW wishes to recover variable costs from different groups of boat users broadly in line with the extent to which they are responsible for causing them to be incurred. Consequently, groups that use the waterway more intensively, and hence cause more costs to be incurred, should be charged more than those that utilise the waterway less intensively.    
(b) Efficient recovery of fixed costs—BW needs to recover some of its fixed costs.  These are costs not directly caused by particular groups of users, such as general track repairs, as efficiently as possible. Economic theory demonstrates that the minimum loss of usage is caused by charging different user groups according to their willingness and ability to pay.  Groups with a higher ability/willingness to pay are charged more, while those with a lower ability/willingness to pay are charged less. This type of pricing is a widespread accepted practice: travellers pay a varying price for the same type of seat on an aeroplane; discounts are offered to particular types of purchaser (eg, pensioner and student discounts); and particular buyers, such as university libraries, pay higher fees than others for items such as academic journals. This particular approach to price setting, described as Ramsey pricing, has a sound basis in economic theory, and its use is accepted by utility regulators and competition authorities in the UK and overseas. 

 

 

 

Continuous cruisers (boats that have no home mooring)  

1. These boats also have a higher intensity of use.  BW’s 2004 boat owners’ survey indicated that they cruise on average for 177 days per year, which is significantly more than that of a hire boat.  The case for the higher rate is therefore strong on cost impact grounds.

 

 

4. If the higher rate were introduced, we would propose phasing the increase in annual licence fee for existing customers over two years.   There would be stepped rises from April 2006 and April 2007 with the full 2.47 multiple payable from April 2008.  New customers without a home mooring would pay the higher rate immediately.  

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

Do you need a license for a Camel?

I believe so, I was talking about the Camel Racing Tournament. Sorry, I posted in the wrong forum. 

3 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

He’s obviously got the hump ?

No, my camel has... He's got two actually.

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9 hours ago, christophert said:

Due to the current epedemic, Corona Virus, we all have been informed not to move, travel, with our Camels. This is understandable as we all need to work together to stop the spread of this worrying disease.

Car insurance companies are now offering discounts to motorists during these unsettling times.  So should CRT be doing the same?  I believe so. If none of us can use the camels, then I feel we should all be offered a reduction. Since owning my Camel, my licence has risen tenfold over the past decade. It is supposed to be a charity, so maybe it's a good time to be charitable.

 

A few small amendments for you, you can now  Cut & Paste it onto the other forum.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A few small amendments for you, you can now  Cut & Paste it onto the other forum.

Cheers. It saves me the hard work.  I'd have preferred if you changed it to Llamas.

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When you signed up for your licence you agreed to this :

 

 

9.1 We will do our best to keep the Waterway open for navigation, but closures may be required as a result of occasional unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or for other unavoidable reasons, we shall try to arrange our maintenance work to cause you the least disruption. This means that most work requiring closures will be done between the beginning of November and the end of March. There may be other occasions when, due to causes beyond our reasonable control, we have to close part or (exceptionally) all of the Waterway.
9.2 The Licence fees are calculated on the assumption that you will be affected by closures from time to time and accordingly refunds of Licence fees will not be made for closures as described in this Condition 9.

No I didn't. I tippexed out the bits I didn't like.

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