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1 hour ago, pearley said:

I would like to think any professional working on a boat would have appropriate liability insurance. It's 14 years since I last took out this sort of insurance (as a vehicle electrician) but pretty sure I was asked for proof of competence.

 

What was considered proof of competence?

 

Its a good route to take though, starting punting around for PLI as a boat electrician. The insurance companies will soon tell you what evidence (if any) they require to demonstrate competence. It will be none, I suspect. None has even asked me to prove my competence in plumbing or gas, and I've had PLI for 40 years at least. 

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I would think that any court would consider that the consequences under those circumstances were ample proof that you were/are not competent (incompetent?) 

I would suggest they will do that regardless of how many pieces of paper you have got. If it can be shown you did it wrong  and someone gets hurt your in the cack, end of

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5 minutes ago, Keith M said:

One way will be to complete the BMET course and pass the exam.

 

Which BMet course exactly please?

 

I had a look at their website which is full of waffle and just takes you in circles. The electrical stuff appears to be 240Vac, judging by the photos. No syllabus details anywhere as far as I could see on a brief look. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What was considered proof of competence?

 

Its a good route to take though, starting punting around for PLI as a boat electrician. The insurance companies will soon tell you what evidence (if any) they require to demonstrate competence. It will be none, I suspect. None has even asked me to prove my competence in plumbing or gas, and I've had PLI for 40 years at least. 

I had any number of certificates of various training courses. ONC, C & G and manufacturers. 

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest they will do that regardless of how many pieces of paper you have got. If it can be shown you did it wrong  and someone gets hurt your in the cack, end of

Which is why you have insurance, or should have.

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26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which BMet course exactly please?

 

I had a look at their website which is full of waffle and just takes you in circles. The electrical stuff appears to be 240Vac, judging by the photos. No syllabus details anywhere as far as I could see on a brief look. 

 

 

You did better than me.  I went to the course search page, selected Adult course at intermediate level then typed in Ultra low voltage (which is often the name used for 12v stuff) it found me a course - 

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The BMET  course is focused at Electrical engineers which I guess the OP is not. All qualified electricians undertake a long apprenticeship/training and work on low voltage(240) in special locations(i.e. boats) may or not be included in the normal training. Same for Gas/LPG. With so many boats now being used as live aboards and the introduction of complex 240v systems on boats there is huge potential for disaster. Anyone working on other peoples boats on LPG or Electrical installations must be properly certificated and have full PLI in my opinion. I wish the OP luck.

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1 minute ago, Mike Adams said:

nyone working on other peoples boats on LPG or Electrical installations must be properly certificated and have full PLI in my opinion.

That takes us back to the question :

 

"What is the proper certification to work on boat electrical installations - both 12v DC and 230v AC" ?

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59 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which BMet course exactly please?

 

I had a look at their website which is full of waffle and just takes you in circles. The electrical stuff appears to be 240Vac, judging by the photos. No syllabus details anywhere as far as I could see on a brief look. 

 

 

https://www.britishmarine.co.uk/Events-and-Courses/2018/February/EVT11208-BMET-Electrical-Course

 

I guess this is the course that MtB was looking at. There is a very brief summary of course content bug no proper syllabus. Given the subjects covered in the next course, Marine Electronics Installer, ie Ohms Law, Batteries, Cable sizing, the basic course would seem to be basic.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which BMet course exactly please?

 

I had a look at their website which is full of waffle and just takes you in circles. The electrical stuff appears to be 240Vac, judging by the photos. No syllabus details anywhere as far as I could see on a brief look. 

 

 

The course linked in post #12 is described thus:

 

OVERVIEW

A two day course based around the BMEEA Code of Practice, the industry recommended standard. A course designed to give candidates a general overview of the knowledge and skills required for a BMEEA-certified Marine Electrical Technician. All information and required knowledge used mainly with UK marine electric systems and follows not only the BMEEA Code of Practice and ISOs, but also the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD).

BENEFITS OF ATTENDING

  • Qualification BMEEA-certified Marine Electrical Technician, an industry recognised qualification
  • Qualified to the BMEEA Code of Practice standard
  • Training course and a qualification
  • BMEEA are industry leaders consistently updating the training to be internationally relevant

IS IT RIGHT FOR ME?

Suitable for electrical engineers with at least one year’s experience, looking to further the knowledge, skills and gaining a qualification in marine electrics.

WHAT WILL I LEARN?

Extensive information on everything individuals need to know about marine electrics, for carrying out electrical work on boats.

WHAT WILL IT COVER?

  • Health & Safety
  • AC & DC Circuits
  • Circuit Diagrams & Standard Conventions
  • Test & Measurement Equipment
  • Generators & Motors
  • Distribution Systems
  • Batteries & Charging Systems
  • Cables & Terminations
  • Exam

It sounds to me like a reasonable scope of work for narrow boat wiring. But in 2 days you can only cover so much, which is presumably why the course is aimed at those with at least a year's experience and, presumably, a basic knowledge of electrics.

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14 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Building Regulations refer to a 'dwelling'. I know this applies to caravans not sure about houseboats

I wouldn't be at all sure about that: Building Regs apply to buildings. Caravans are not generally classed as buildings.

https://community.screwfix.com/threads/part-p-and-caravans.28632/

 

Edited by George and Dragon
typo
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14 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Building Regulations refer to a 'dwelling'. I know this applies to caravans not sure about houseboats

Houseboat, now thats a good term

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The course linked in post #12 is described thus:

 

OVERVIEW

A two day course based around the BMEEA Code of Practice, the industry recommended standard. A course designed to give candidates a general overview of the knowledge and skills required for a BMEEA-certified Marine Electrical Technician. All information and required knowledge used mainly with UK marine electric systems and follows not only the BMEEA Code of Practice and ISOs, but also the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD).

BENEFITS OF ATTENDING

  • Qualification BMEEA-certified Marine Electrical Technician, an industry recognised qualification
  • Qualified to the BMEEA Code of Practice standard
  • Training course and a qualification
  • BMEEA are industry leaders consistently updating the training to be internationally relevant

IS IT RIGHT FOR ME?

Suitable for electrical engineers with at least one year’s experience, looking to further the knowledge, skills and gaining a qualification in marine electrics.

WHAT WILL I LEARN?

Extensive information on everything individuals need to know about marine electrics, for carrying out electrical work on boats.

WHAT WILL IT COVER?

  • Health & Safety
  • AC & DC Circuits
  • Circuit Diagrams & Standard Conventions
  • Test & Measurement Equipment
  • Generators & Motors
  • Distribution Systems
  • Batteries & Charging Systems
  • Cables & Terminations
  • Exam

It sounds to me like a reasonable scope of work for narrow boat wiring. But in 2 days you can only cover so much, which is presumably why the course is aimed at those with at least a year's experience and, presumably, a basic knowledge of electrics.

And who are "Engineers" How long does it take to become an Electrical Engineer, I never reached that dizzy height

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32 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Building Regulations refer to a 'dwelling'. I know this applies to caravans not sure about houseboats

I very much doubt it would,

 

What is a houseboat ? (there are at least 3 definitions that I know of)

 

Just a couple of examples : Domestic wiring is T&E whilst the ISO specifications for 'Small Craft Wiring' specifies 'flexible / stranded' conductors, 'fixing' distances are very different as well.

 

 

C&RT changed their definition in 2012 :

 

To take into account the 1971 and 1995 Acts, our definition of a houseboat has changed to:  Houseboat means a boat whose predominant use is for a purpose other than navigation and which, if required for the purpose, has planning permission, for the site where it is moored. A houseboat may be used for navigation from time to time provided it does not become its predominant use.”   
The new definition means that boats which can navigate may now be registered as a houseboat.  Previously, a houseboat was defined as not capable of moving.   
We acknowledge that our definition of a houseboat is not consistent with those of HMRC and LA planning, so we will provide clear references to the different definitions where appropriate.  The existence of multiple definitions is unhelpful, but it is not within our power to change this.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

You did better than me.  I went to the course search page, selected Adult course at intermediate level then typed in Ultra low voltage (which is often the name used for 12v stuff) it found me a course - 

 

I landed on this:

 

https://www.bmet.ac.uk/

 

 

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

And who are "Engineers" How long does it take to become an Electrical Engineer, I never reached that dizzy height

I think it means 'engineer' in the same sense that that man who mends the photocopier is an 'engineer'. I doubt it is referring to Chartered Engineers.

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36 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That seems to be Birmingham Metropolitan College. The original reference was to qualification as a BMEEA-certified Marine Electrical Technician, BMEEA being the British Marine Electrical and Electronics Association.

 

Ah yes, the industry recognised qual that no-one has ever heard of!
 

 

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Things to think about.

In my experience, it is very difficult to gain experience to become competent, my First electrician was the most competent, having been in the RN for a good number of years, he had a Good understanding of electrics.

I recently had a Gas Safe BSC inspector who had to do some work to make my boat comply. This included fitting the 15 year old cooker according to manufacturers instructions.

 There was another matter of gas joints which did not comply, and actually leaked (taped with ptfe and self amalgamating, pipes not supported etc etc.

The boat had "passed" previous inspections by competant persons, frankly it was not safe. So, how happy would you be to work on any boat, given that every one is a "one off", and the older the boat, the more likely the more :off".

I think it is easiest to start from scratch.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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33 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Things to think about.

In my experience, it is very difficult to gain experience to become competent, my First electrician was the most competent, having been in the RN for a good number of years, he had a Good understanding of electrics.

 

Maybe, but the one I gave you the phone number of, who you messed about for a week, then told to f**k off is more than merely competent.

 

He has spent thirty years designing the electronic systems we rely on today, and since moving onto a boat ten years ago thought he might apply his skills to the benefit of the boating community.  So he took the British Marine course alluded to above, and came back complaining that the people running it had missed half the point of the ISO standard that forms most of the RCD regulations.

 

The chap you snubbed was a real, qualified engineer - with decades of experience - who was prepared to cross the country to fix your boat because I had asked him to.  As a favour to me, because you had said on here that you needed help.

 

Thanks Jo.  I now owe him extra favours.

 

Is the visitor mooring you have moved to as good as you expected this week?

 

 

 

 

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About 50 years ago I was working on a ship in Lowestoft installing extra electrical systems, the company had a red hot ex navy electrician, it turned out he had a little book that gave the answer to virtually every electrical fault you could find on Government owned vessel, this was an ex RAF recovery vessel being refitted for survey work for the oil and gas industry.

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19 hours ago, David Mack said:

That course says it is based on the BMEEA Code of Practice. But as far as I am aware that CoP is not available to non-members of the BMEEA, unlike the ISO standards referred to in the RCD which are available to anyone (at a cost).  

So it's a bit hard for most of us to know whether work on our own boats complies with the Code or not.

Any one can purchase a copy of the BMEEA C of P.

Just contact the technical department of the British Marine Federation.

Edited by Keith M
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17 hours ago, pearley said:

I would like to think any professional working on a boat would have appropriate liability insurance. It's 14 years since I last took out this sort of insurance (as a vehicle electrician) but pretty sure I was asked for proof of competence.

In all of the years I have worked within the Inland Waterways Sector I have never been asked to proved my electrical competence when taking out or renew my PL insurance.

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16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT changed their definition in 2012 :

 

To take into account the 1971 and 1995 Acts, our definition of a houseboat has changed to:  Houseboat means a boat whose predominant use is for a purpose other than navigation and which, if required for the purpose, has planning permission, for the site where it is moored. A houseboat may be used for navigation from time to time provided it does not become its predominant use.”   
The new definition means that boats which can navigate may now be registered as a houseboat.  Previously, a houseboat was defined as not capable of moving.   

OK so how many boats on the system are houseboats according to this definition? If you live aboard for 13 days and then move for one day or less then the predominant use must be not for navigation therefore it must be a houseboat.

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