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Help me please (newbie alert)


fennylock

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Good Morning Experienced Canal Folk … trust you are well. 

 

I've been fortunate to live on the canal for many a year, some of you may have been so lucky as to meet my husband when passing through Fenny Lock (Red Lion on one side, our white cottage on the opposite) - he was a stickler for the bridge being shut, which it never was … but I digress. 

 

Unfortunately he sadly passed away last October and I've had to move from the area and off the canal but the water still calls and I am looking for a way to continue to enjoy it as we previously did. 

 

Once upon a time I had a little cruiser Puglett but mooring was an issue and we sold it on; however I am seriously toying with the idea of purchasing another one since I've found mooring near me circa £95 a month (seems ok price?), license for a boat up to 23ft is approx £50 ish a month, insurance no doubt in the region of £30 .. misc fuel, gas, etc etc another £50. 

 

Holidaying in the UK 'single' is dead expensive, so thinking that this could be not only weekend enjoyment but also a way to holiday in the UK with my pets without breaking the bank. I know I know that boats are not cheap but a week holiday on your own in a not so shabby cottage will set you back £300 + so it's all relative at the end of the day? 

 

The boats I'm thinking of are Norman, Freeman that sort of ilk .. but suggestions very much welcome as to which is the best boat to buy for my buck, thinking no more than £4000, is this do-able? I don't have the skill set to fix up so needs to come in a good way as I don't do absolute filth and mire either :) 

 

So my question to all of you is as follows:

 

1) with practice, would I comfortably be able to steer said 20-23ft boat on my own (will have dog and cat on board just to keep distraction levels high ..). I know this is all relative to the person, etc but I trust that anyone, male or female, would be able to manage a boat of this size no? Being 'plastic' doesn't make a big difference assuming I don't take it out in crazy harsh gales?

 

2) is budgeting circa £200 - £250 max a month "realistic" (I would be taking it out probably 3 out of 4 weekends for the Saturday and Sunday, not a huge amount of cruising, say two hours or so and moor up / walk / enjoy nature, saying this for context re fuel costs, etc!!)

 

3) if I wait till I find the right boat, other than the mooring, insurance, license, running costs, are there any other expensive things I am missing which I need to factor in? 

 

Basically, it's a go-er for me if the monthly budget of £200 - £250 is actually realistic, if it's looking more like £300 to £400 then I'll have to face reality and dream on .. 

 

Thanks for reading and giving me some honest advice. 

 

Mary

 

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Only a few, possibly a very few Freemans are narrow  enough to pass through the narrow canal system and even then you may find the odd lock tight. Also Freemans often have petrol engines and petrol for an inboard is not common canalside, a bit easier on rivers through.

 

As people single hand 60ft narrowboats and wide beams I can see no reason why you cant handle something around 28ft long. You will need to organise your rope handling for passing through locks but its all doable.

 

Insurance on a diesel powered 54ft narrowboat valued at £25000 is about £140 a year comprehensive and third party only would be cheaper so insurance is less than half your estimate.   

 

Be aware that the cruisers at the cheaper end of the [price range are likely to be petrol powered and very often outboards. Petrol engines use more fuel than diesels and you may have to carry it in cans form a garage to the boat. I suspect in the near future petrol and diesel will both cost broadly the same and canal side that will be more expensive than at a  supermarket.

 

I have some reservations about the £4000 being realistic but then I have not been looking at adverts for GRP cruisers.

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Welcome to the forum Mary. Sorry to hear about your loss last October. You'll need to figure in some money for maintenance, more if you have to pay someone else. Assuming you have no shore power on your mooring, then a solar panel on the roof to keep the battery(ies) charged during the week would be a good idea. The basic numbers you've got look reasonable to me, but I've not owned a boat that size, or type. As far as being able to handle it is concerned, I have a 57' steel narrowboat, which I single hand a lot, so a 23' GRP boat will be fine. The trick is to work with the boat, not against it. Plastic boats tend to draw less water and are more susceptible to being caught by the wind, but are also a lot lighter than steel ones, so easier to hold. Long narrowboats have their own problems in strong winds. Neither type are well behaved in a gale.

No experience with dogs on board, but most seem to take to it very well. Cats can be more variable. I've had two on board and both were OK. Stayed in the cabin when cruising and went exploring for a short way when moored up. However, the boat was their home, so it was their home territory, the place where they felt safe. Going from house to boat and back will be more disruptive and some cats will cope better than others. The first few trips are likely to be traumatic. Many cats don't like the engine noise and they have to get used to the idea that the outside changes. I'd strongly advise shutting them in a cabin while on the move. They may get used to it and enjoy it, they may not.

 

Jen

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Your budget is quite ok for a fibreglass cruiser.I have a Norman 20 and the costs are roughly,

Mooring £60 pm

Insurance £93 pa

BSS £130 every four years

Canal licence   Forgotten how much.

The Norman 20 is a sound design,however the accomodation is very cramped.

You can pick up  a Norman 20 very cheaply,but for a really good,fully equipped one (good engine,decent gas cooker,good fit out,good paintwork some form of heating,gas or diesel.) expect to pay £3500 to £4500.

Suggest you visit one or two Norman 20s to see if you are supple enough to move around inside.

There is also Norman 22,23,and 24.These are much roomier boats and they handle pretty much the same,and are fine for single handers (once you have fitted mounting blocks in the cockpit.Because if you are a bit short legged getting in and out can be a bit of a stretch)

The bigger Normans will cost more of course,but again you will see some advertised cheaply.

Suggest you join The Norman Owners Forum (as well as CWF of course) and there like here you will find everything you want to know about Norman boats,as well as (like here) many knowledgeable people willing to share their experience.

Let us know how you are getting on.

 

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Hi Mary, welcome to the forum.

I think Jen's point about maintenance is important and may be the thing that blows your budget. It will all be about what you get for your initial £4000 investment. If the boat needs a lot doing to it then your monthly outgoings could soar. I'm not sure what you would get for £4000 so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chip in with what to expect for that sort of cash?

 

 

....eta.   There you go....Mad H beat me toit 

Edited by Dr Bob
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32 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This one looks like it might suit you. https://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/shop/delusions/

That one looks to me to be worth a visit.

It looks to be a MK 1,so will be quite old.

This is ok because fibreglass doesn't corrode.

It appears to have a modern Tohatsu outboard and these engines are good for canal use,in that they pivot up via some sort of ratchet mechanism when the outboard leg scrapes the bottom or hits a shopping trolley minimising prop damage.It says it is 9hp and this is quite adequate for canals.

Quite tempted to go and have a look myself . Being a comfort lover,I would fit a blown air heater to it,and unless you are handy yourself,it could be expensive.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

That one looks to me to be worth a visit.

It looks to be a MK 1,so will be quite old.

This is ok because fibreglass doesn't corrode.

It appears to have a modern Tohatsu outboard and these engines are good for canal use,in that they pivot up via some sort of ratchet mechanism when the outboard leg scrapes the bottom or hits a shopping trolley minimising prop damage.It says it is 9hp and this is quite adequate for canals.

Quite tempted to go and have a look myself . Being a comfort lover,I would fit a blown air heater to it,and unless you are handy yourself,it could be expensive.

 

It looks tide and well looked after.  The big downside is no cooking provision at all, no gas, no heating, no hot water.  But they could all be remedied fairly easily and the price is good.  I'd put a propane bottle on the back, then fit a morco/rinnai, a basic 2 burner hob and a propex type heater. 

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1 hour ago, fennylock said:

The boats I'm thinking of are Norman, Freeman that sort of ilk .. but suggestions very much welcome as to which is the best boat to buy for my buck, thinking no more than £4000, is this do-able? I don't have the skill set to fix up so needs to come in a good way as I don't do absolute filth and mire either :)

Hopefully not to dampen the enthusiasm, but I'd suggest that the more you spend on a boat, the less you will have to spend on improvements and maintenance.

 

I really do doubt that you will get a 'fully fitted' boat for £4000.

To get one with a toilet, hot water, cooking, heating will be costing you about £6-£8000 (or more)

 

Installing the above 'extras' will probably cost you £2-£3000, but if you can live without heating and hot water, or a hob or cooker than 'go-for it'. DO NOT be tempted to think, "I can just have a camping stove to boil a kettle" it is EXTREMELY dangerous even more so with a petrol engine boat (risk of explosion) and particularly the generation of the killer gas CO (Carbon Monoxide)

 

Boats with a petrol engine will be much cheaper (several £1000's) because of the increased risks and problems of using petrol, but at £4000 you will not have any choice.

 

I would strongly suggest that you try and up your budget to £6-£8,000 as your choice of boat will be much increased and the work needed much reduced.

 

 

This 30 footer was on ebay three times before it sold, it had pretty much everything needed to 'live on board' (including a diesel engine) and eventually sold for £8000.

 

s-l1600.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hopefully not to dampen the enthusiasm, but I'd suggest that the more you spend on a boat, the less you will have to spend on improvements and maintenance.

 

I really do doubt that you will get a 'fully fitted' boat for £4000.

To get one with a toilet, hot water, cooking, heating will be costing you about £6-£8000 (or more)

 

Installing the above 'extras' will probably cost you £2-£3000, but if you can live without heating and hot water, or a hob or cooker than 'go-for it'. DO NOT be tempted to think, "I can just have a camping stove to boil a kettle" it is EXTREMELY dangerous even more so with a petrol engine boat (risk of explosion) and particularly the generation of the killer gas CO (Carbon Monoxide)

 

Boats with a petrol engine will be much cheaper (several £1000's) because of the increased risks and problems of using petrol, but at £4000 you will not have any choice.

 

I would strongly suggest that you try and up your budget to £6-£8,000 as your choice of boat will be much increased and the work needed much reduced.

 

 

This 30 footer was on ebay three times before it sold, it had pretty much everything needed to 'live on board' (including a diesel engine) and eventually sold for £8000.

 

s-l1600.jpg

I do largely agree with Alan's post.

I don't know if you are diy skilled or not,but from my experience of buying boats (and cars and motorbikes) I have found that buying one that needs work to bring it to a satisfactory (for you) standard,costs more and causes more grief than buying one "ready to go".Yes you will pay more,but it is better in the long run.

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3 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I do largely agree with Alan's post.

I don't know if you are diy skilled or not,but from my experience of buying boats (and cars and motorbikes) I have found that buying one that needs work to bring it to a satisfactory (for you) standard,costs more and causes more grief than buying one "ready to go".Yes you will pay more,but it is better in the long run.

 

The OP does say :

 

2 hours ago, fennylock said:

I don't have the skill set to fix up so needs to come in a good way as I don't do absolute filth and mire either

 

So I think it needs to be a 'clean', fully fitted', ready to go boat with no outstanding maintenance.

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15 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I do largely agree with Alan's post.

I don't know if you are diy skilled or not,but from my experience of buying boats (and cars and motorbikes) I have found that buying one that needs work to bring it to a satisfactory (for you) standard,costs more and causes more grief than buying one "ready to go".Yes you will pay more,but it is better in the long run.

 

Seconded. 

 

It is very easy to get seduced by a low price and think you now have some 'headroom' to pay for the improvements necessary to bring it up to the spec you originally wanted. Trouble is, actually getting the work done usually turns into a far bigger diversion than you first thought. But worst of all, you are buying the boat to use it, not keep it moored up in bits for a summer while you have the alterations carried out. 

 

And never forget the maxim about work on the boat costing three times your highest initial estimate, and taking three times as long. 

 

Buy the right boat in the first place, would be my advice.

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Thanks all for the contributions! I know £8000 is a more reasonable sum to have, I’m just not sure it’s wise as a ‘first time boat’ if that makes sense?

 

The link someone posted does look up my alley in terms of finish and general state of it though I know aesthetics have nothing truly to do about it. If hubby were here we could tackle a project but I know I couldn’t on my own and if it were a hassle in any great way I wouldn’t end up keeping it.

 

Lack of cooker is a small concern, would like a cuppa and to warm through some food brought with so I guess I need to budget more or do people use camp stoves on canal side for such things or would it be a pain in shit weather (the norm) such as to make me regret my decision??!

 

Most important question to me is for a boat that size/type what maintenance budget should I be factoring in? Think this is the make or break element; I can justify £250 a month for my weekend and holiday enjoyment, but if it goes up much more it’s not truly viable long term (since it’s not my home just a get away boat).

Edited by fennylock
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Oh also meant to say, I’ve seen quite a few decent (looking) boats in the region of £3000-£4500 so if an experienced boater checked it thoroughly and was sound...what would I expect to pay in maintenance costs per month (put aside £50 or more...?)

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8 minutes ago, fennylock said:

Most important question to me is for a boat that size/type what maintenance budget should I be factoring in?

That really depends on how much work you plan (or are able) to do yourself.

 

Example - You could do an oil change yourself at a cost of (probably) £40 for oil and parts. If you pay a 'Boat engineer' to come and do it, it may well be £40 for parts + £50 an hour (including travelling) so could easily come to around £200.

 

When you lift the boat out each year ( cost ?) then are you able to scrape the slime and mussels off the bottom, or will you pay someone to do it ?

 

When you get a water leak around one of the windows can you take out the window yourself and re-seal it or will you need to 'get a man in' ?

 

Running repairs / maintenance is probably far higher than for a house & boating only becomes economically viable if you can do, or are prepared to learn how to do much of the work yourself.

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6 minutes ago, fennylock said:

Thanks all for the contributions! I know £8000 is a more reasonable sum to have, I’m just not sure it’s wise as a ‘first time boat’ if that makes sense?

 

The link someone posted does look up my alley in terms of finish and general state of it though I know aesthetics have nothing truly to do about it. If hubby were here we could tackle a project but I know I couldn’t on my own and if it were a hassle in any great way I wouldn’t end up keeping it.

 

Lack of cooker is a small concern, would like a cuppa and to warm through some food brought with so I guess I need to budget more or do people use camp stoves on canal side for such things or would it be a pain in shit weather (the norm) such as to make me regret my decision??!

 

Most important question to me is for a boat that size/type what maintenance budget should I be factoring in? Think this is the make or break element; I can justify £250 a month for my weekend and holiday enjoyment, but if it goes up much more it’s not truly viable long term (since it’s not my home just a get away boat).

The maintainance costs for any boat are a guess.A steel narrowboat can cost several K in repair and maintainance one year,and very little for the next five years,it all depends.(Don't ask me how I know)

A grp boat will/should be cheaper in maintainance,in that it will only need to come out of the water every five years or so for inspection and antifouling.

A new outboard will cost about £2000 compared to £10+ for a new narrowboat engine.

The advice so far is good.Buy a sound boat that is fitted out to your requirements and you should be ok.

A camping stove on a boat is a no no.The majority of boats will generally have gas fitted.

This is probably a good time to study the internet and broker's websites to further your knowledge of boats and stuff.Because of the lockdown you can't physically go to inspect a boat,so read up as much as possible.

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Ah I get you! Do these boats ‘have’ to come out each winter or could I manage every other year? That’s something I hadn’t considered. 

 

I am prepared to learn most things though to be honest I would get brother in laws who are local to assist or ‘Wol’ (the lovely owner of said boat in fenny who I know well) is prepared to show me the ropes and I’m thinking for the sort of small man jobs a combination of paying him or getting family to assist...and then doing the rest myself, hard dirty work im

not afraid of, I just worry about safety related repairs and wouldn’t do or try to learn that.

 

I still think it could work, I’m fortunately earning well with low home costs and am not a party goer or shopper, seems to me a matter of priority and what a person chooses to spend their money on...

 

I’ll re do my sums, bit less for insurance, add £50 or so in for ongoing repairs and see the damage :)

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1 minute ago, Mad Harold said:

The maintainance costs for any boat are a guess.A steel narrowboat can cost several K in repair and maintainance one year,and very little for the next five years,it all depends.(Don't ask me how I know)

A grp boat will/should be cheaper in maintainance,in that it will only need to come out of the water every five years or so for inspection and antifouling.

A new outboard will cost about £2000 compared to £10+ for a new narrowboat engine.

The advice so far is good.Buy a sound boat that is fitted out to your requirements and you should be ok.

A camping stove on a boat is a no no.The majority of boats will generally have gas fitted.

This is probably a good time to study the internet and broker's websites to further your knowledge of boats and stuff.Because of the lockdown you can't physically go to inspect a boat,so read up as much as possible.

Agree, good point. I’ve spent a few too many hours on this already but it passes the time! And thank you for reply re how often it needs to come out of water..i truly was intending to leave it there all winter, aware it will be cold but wouldn’t put me off using and just wrapping up; probably not when it was dreadful dreadful wet as who likes that...but dry bright and cold yes pls.

 

A lot of it is for the benefits I get  in my mind from being in nature and by the water...so if I can make it work in monthly budget I definitely will as you only live once and all that!

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7 minutes ago, fennylock said:

Ah I get you! Do these boats ‘have’ to come out each winter or could I manage every other year? That’s something I hadn’t considered. 

There are two schools of thought on this.

 

Generally (most) 'tupperware' boats are lifted out every winter, this gives the opportunity for the fibreglass to 'dry-out' and for you to antifoul the bottom and fit new anodes.

Other believe that every two years is sufficient, it depends on how you want to look after your boat and the 'quality' of the water you are in.

Certainly within 2 years the antifoul is worn away (manufacturers generally recommend replacement every year) and the anodes will be down to 1/3rd and need replacing.

 

It is generally found that the more expensive the boat, the more it 'comes out' and is better maintained, some folks will only ever take their boat out every 5 years, or never, but how do they know the condition of the bottom and the anodes ?

 

I take mine out every two years.

 

My big-boat on the coast comes out every year.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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24 minutes ago, fennylock said:

Oh also meant to say, I’ve seen quite a few decent (looking) boats in the region of £3000-£4500 so if an experienced boater checked it thoroughly and was sound...what would I expect to pay in maintenance costs per month (put aside £50 or more...?)

Could you post links to these boats?

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are two schools of thought on this.

 

Generally (most) 'tupperware' boats are lifted out every winter, this gives the opportunity for the fibreglass to 'dry-out' and for you to antifoul the bottom and fit new anodes.

Other believe that every two years is sufficient, it depends on how you want to look after your boat and the 'quality' of the water you are in.

 

It is generally found that the more expensive the boat, the more it 'comes out' and is better maintained, some folks will only ever take their boat out every 5 years, or never, but how do they know the condition of the bottom and the anodes ?

 

I take mine out every two years.

 

My big-boat on the coast comes out every year.

Anodes on yoghurt pots?

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7 minutes ago, fennylock said:

Do these boats ‘have’ to come out each winter or could I manage every other year? That’s something I hadn’t considered.

 

I'd say a fibreglass boat NEVER actually has to come out. 

 

If you wanted it maintained in tip-top, 'as new' condition then yes, but once a boat is sub-£5k, I'd suggest you'll be lucky to find one with much history of docking.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Could you post links to these boats?

Anodes on yoghurt pots?

My grp boat doesn't have anodes on the hull,but there is one fitted to the outboard leg,

One manufacturer of anti fouling paint (the copper inpregnated sort) quotes a ten year life.

About fibreglass boats having to come out of the water to "dry out" opinions vary,but it is generally thought to be "an old wives tale"

Edited by Mad Harold
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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd say a fibreglass boat NEVER actually has to come out. 

 

If you wanted it maintained in tip-top, 'as new' condition then yes, but once a boat is sub-£5k, I'd suggest you'll be lucky to find one with much history of docking.

 

 

That is why they become sub-£5k boats.

 

Anodes are much smaller that NB anodes and need changing every 1 or 2 years.

1 minute ago, Mad Harold said:

My grp boat doesn't have anodes on the hull,but there is one fitted to the outboard leg,

One manufacturer of anti fouling paint (the copper inpregnated sort) quotes a ten year life.

And does you boat have copper-coat ?

 

Mine is 36 foot & it cost £10k to have mine done, I had to re-do it last year but went with a 2-pack and it cost almost £5k

16-10-19h.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is why they become sub-£5k boats.

 

Anodes are much smaller that NB anodes and need changing every 1 or 2 years.

 

Or what happens? A new propeller is needed every 20 years?

 

I'd say it's the other way around. Once the value of a boat falls to a few thousand quid, shelling out a grand on docking it every 1 or 2 years makes no sense. 

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