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Finding the right NB


Callum4878

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38 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Please sir,

Does the original caveat of 'if the boat is not sold within 5 years' no longer apply?

As far as I know - Yes it still applies, but I am not sure how the new 'sailaway' rules apply - eg if you fit anything that can affect the safety or emission standards it MUST have a PCA. Possibly fitting out and putting in electrics and gas affects 'safety', you are making 'major changes' to a 'complete boat'.

 

As in the previous Directive, there are still some boats which are exempt from the RCD, these are:

Home built: where the boat has been substantially built by the owner for their own use and is not sold for a period of 5 years.  However the boat owner may employ specialist services for elements of the build and still be considered a self build. However, you may find it challenging to sell the boat after 5 years without the relevant RCD documentation, builders plate and CE marking.

House boats: with no means of propulsion, intended to be permanently moored and connected to shore facilities are not in the scope of the RCD.

 

 

 

The 2017 amendments mean that a sail-away is now treated as a 'complete boat' and must have ALL of the documentation including manuals, a builders plaque and serial number etc etc etc.

 

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

  • A builders plate – makers details and technical information
  • A CE mark
  • A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
  • An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
  • A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Remember that some vintage engines will struggle to provide sufficient charging due to low revs and the inability to get a big enough pulley to drive the alternator at sufficiently high revs.

On the other hand there are plenty of vintage engines out there where the alternator is driven by a belt running on the outside of the flywheel - effectively a pulley 20"+ in diameter.

 

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Alternatively, you CAN fit a Vintage engine is it can be made to achieve the emission standards required.

 

Noise standards I think also.

19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Can you cite a vintage engine that can be made to comply?

 

I don't think there is one.

 

But in any event the obstacle will be that even if an engine does comply there will be no documentation of that. Modern engine manufacturers spend thousands getting their engines tested to obtain approval (and that probably involves destructive testing of a few engines along the way).

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

On the other hand there are plenty of vintage engines out there where the alternator is driven by a belt running on the outside of the flywheel - effectively a pulley 20"+ in diameter.

 

Correct - but I did say SOME.

Over the years there have been a number of threads on the forum where folks with vintage engines just cannot get a way of producing enough 'leccy.

 

There have even been suggestions about cutting away bulkheads to try and get bigger pulleys - I guess its a combination of both the engine and how it is installed.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Over the years there have been a number of threads on the forum where folks with vintage engines just cannot get a way of producing enough 'leccy.

 

Its always the same engine, the Lister series with no crankshaft pulley but a pulley driven at half speed by the camshaft. And they are hardly proper vintage anyway!

 

Pretty much any other vintage lump can drive an alternator perfectly well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Its always the same engine, the Lister series with no crankshaft pulley but a pulley driven at half speed by the camshaft. And they are hardly proper vintage anyway!

 

Pretty much any other vintage lump can drive an alternator perfectly well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the OP is looking at Lister engined boats, then this thread should make him aware of one of the engine limitations (but being a Diesel fitter, maybe he already knows)

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not that I know of. Can you cite any?

 

 

Nope, I simply thought that I had read of instances, that's why I phrased it as a question. But I refer you to m'learned friend Mr.d'Enfield's reply.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I must have a 'zero' in the wrong place.

 

A 10KVA inverter, at 'full chat' is going to be drawing 1000 amps from a 12v battery system it must have supply cabling that looks like 2" diameter copper rods.

 

 

Don't think that 900Ah is a big battery bank - for a liveaboard it would be quite small. (I am not a liveaboard and have 6x 230Ah batteries) .

 

Remember that some vintage engines will struggle to provide sufficient charging due to low revs and the inability to get a big enough pulley to drive the alternator at sufficiently high revs.

Air cooled vintage engines also present the problem of getting hot water.

 

Moving from land to being a NB liveaboard will be a big enough 'change in lifestyle' without putting unnecessary obstacles in the way.

 

PS - don't go for the all electric option !

I wonder what voltage its at, maybe its 48 volts. There was someone who called himself Bottle who had an all electric boat for many years with no problem, I think the boat was called Oak something

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder what voltage its at, maybe its 48 volts. There was someone who called himself Bottle who had an all electric boat for many years with no problem,

 

How did he charge the batteries?

 

Most electric boats run perfectly well, its the battery charging that all the problems revolve around.

 

If you moor in a marina with a whopping great shoreline supply and always return to base every night then fine, but if you want to stay out then you'll need to take a diesel engine with you anyway and run it all evening once you've moored up. So what's the point?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How did he charge the batteries?

 

Most electric boats run perfectly well, its the battery charging that all the problems revolve around.

 

If you moor in a marina with a whopping great shoreline supply and always return to base every night then fine, but if you want to stay out then you'll need to take a diesel engine with you anyway and run it all evening once you've moored up. So what's the point?

 

 

If I could remember the name of his boat I would search for his blog, I am not sure but I think it was a built in cocooned genny but as I said not 100% on that

 

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Some disjointed notes on the above:-

 

Most/many marinas only have 16 amp connections. Methinks paraleling  two 16 amp supplies will either not be allowed or will drop out erratically. A few have 32 amp sockes but may well charge more to use them.

 

If high powered devices onboard are desired it makes good sense to increase the battery bank voltage - not the least because 24 / 48v inverters are cheaper / more reliable than their 12v cousins.  

 

Alternators of greater than 24v output are unavailable (?) or very expensive...

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3 hours ago, Callum4878 said:

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry, by all electric I didn’t mean propulsion too, should have said gas free really. Boat in question has a massive 10KVA inverter.

Have done a fair bit of research and have six boats on our list to view, and an extensive wish list.

I was a multi skilled maintenance engineer, serving my time initially as a diesel fitter, hence the preference for a vintage engine.

Have considered a new build, but don’t like the idea of a long wait.

If you are a diesel man and fancy a vintage engine then a proper boat with a big engine in its own engine room is what you need, anything else will disappoint you.

 

I have noticed that quite a few boats with proper engines are gas free, not got a clue why this is, if you can fix a vintage engine you can surely make a Wade fitting gas tight at just 37mBar.

 

...............Dave

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why not put them in the gas locker?

 

That's what I do. Am I doing it wrong?

 

Some folks put Bow Thrusters in them...

 

I've room for three, yes 3 in mine - I only found out when I got fed up with two rattling around. It's not a big / oversized locker, just one fabricated to make the boat look right / proper and ship shape. 

Edited by OldGoat
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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Mine lives on the roof.

 

 

 

Quite right and proper, though my wood one rotted through lack if use, so now I've got a girt big lump of ali scaffold pole instead...

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I too would not touch the 'electric only' boat. We looked at one in our search for a new boat a few months back and the numbers just don't add up. You could easily use 200Ahrs cooking an evening meal which then has to be put back in. With Lead acids then is a real challenge. The particular one we saw had a cocooned generator but it was raw water cooled which put me off .....and the number of hours you would have to run it. If we had gone for this boat I would have immediately put in a gas powered hob.

Are you making one assumption that could be not quite right? You are going to travel the network so it has to be 58' max? We thought that before our first boat but fell in love with our 62' boat. You need that extra room as a liverboard. We are now moving up to a longer boat for more room again. There are plenty of canals to navigate round without needing to do the Leeds Liverpool or C&A.Dont think we could survive in a 58 footer.

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35 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I too would not touch the 'electric only' boat. We looked at one in our search for a new boat a few months back and the numbers just don't add up. You could easily use 200Ahrs cooking an evening meal which then has to be put back in. With Lead acids then is a real challenge. The particular one we saw had a cocooned generator but it was raw water cooled which put me off .....and the number of hours you would have to run it. If we had gone for this boat I would have immediately put in a gas powered hob.

Are you making one assumption that could be not quite right? You are going to travel the network so it has to be 58' max? We thought that before our first boat but fell in love with our 62' boat. You need that extra room as a liverboard. We are now moving up to a longer boat for more room again. There are plenty of canals to navigate round without needing to do the Leeds Liverpool or C&A.Dont think we could survive in a 58 footer.

There's nowt wrong with raw water cooling - IF it's installed PROPERLY. Most of Teddesley  built hire boats were RWC and Peter never said they had major issues.

You need a girt big mud box with a simple weir to trap large stuff. Even if you do get a blockage, there's plenty of time ti take action before the engine explodes.

 

Behold a voice crying in the wilderness....

 

 

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15 hours ago, Callum4878 said:

My thoughts entirely, but unfortunately not wife’s, I’m hoping she’ll fall in love with one of the two I’ve found for sale.

I'm biased, as we have a boat with a Gardner engine in its own engine room. But it's worth mentioning that this space isn't just useful as a home for the engine. It will also swallow up loads of "stuff" (tools, containers of oil, folding bike, water containers, bulky outdoor clothing....) which do not then need to be stored elsewhere and which thus don't get in the way. In addition, the engine exudes loads of dry heat which is useful for drying wet clothes and towels (we have a washing line stretched fore to aft above it). This heat continues to emanate from the engine for a couple of hours after the end of it's day's work, and thus helps to warm the bedroom as long as you remember to leave the rear engine-room door open.

 

Oh, and it helps keep you out of your wife's way as you spend a happy hour in there with the Brasso and cloths!

 

Are these boats on sale with brokers? Some of us would be very interested in seeing their details.

 

 

Edited by Athy
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1 minute ago, OldGoat said:

There's nowt wrong with raw water cooling - IF it's installed PROPERLY. Most of Teddesley  built hire boats were RWC and Peter never said they had major issues.

You need a girt big mud box with a simple weir to trap large stuff. Even if you do get a blockage, there's plenty of time ti take action before the engine explodes.

 

Behold a voice crying in the wilderness....

 

 

 

You've obviously not spent much time on the BCN then. 

 

My RWC was forever getting blocked with carp requiring tedious stops to clear it out. 

 

Cruising along, every so often wafts of steam up the side of the  the boat. Peer around and see no water from the outflow... dammit stop yet again.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I too would not touch the 'electric only' boat. We looked at one in our search for a new boat a few months back and the numbers just don't add up. You could easily use 200Ahrs cooking an evening meal which then has to be put back in. With Lead acids then is a real challenge. The particular one we saw had a cocooned generator but it was raw water cooled which put me off .....and the number of hours you would have to run it. If we had gone for this boat I would have immediately put in a gas powered hob.

Are you making one assumption that could be not quite right? You are going to travel the network so it has to be 58' max? We thought that before our first boat but fell in love with our 62' boat. You need that extra room as a liverboard. We are now moving up to a longer boat for more room again. There are plenty of canals to navigate round without needing to do the Leeds Liverpool or C&A.Dont think we could survive in a 58 footer.

Indeed. I think we all fall for the 57 footer when first moving aboard. I know I did, my first was 56 foot. Its fair to say we did do the L and L  on our first 3 short length boats but in reality never wanted to do it since as the extra length we have had in the last few boats makes life much more comfortable. A 57 footer will also cost as much a s a70 footer second hand. Horses for courses though and if life confines you to an area of short locks then needs must.

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6 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

There's nowt wrong with raw water cooling - IF it's installed PROPERLY. Most of Teddesley  built hire boats were RWC and Peter never said they had major issues.

You need a girt big mud box with a simple weir to trap large stuff. Even if you do get a blockage, there's plenty of time ti take action before the engine explodes.

 

Behold a voice crying in the wilderness....

 

 

Yep, the one we looked didn't have a big mud box and what it did have was buried right at the front of the engine 'ole so toatally inaccessible for me. We spent 5 years on a lumpy water boat with raw water cooling and I just love the fact that this sewer tube doesn't have it! I see where you are coming from though.

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