Stenson Lock to Derwent Mouth Lock Width

[Heartland]

The width of the Trent & Mersey Canal has been stated to accept craft of up to 13ft 6in in historical texts and the HNBS reported that the tail of Weston and Aston Locks were too narrow for some GU pairs. Yet standard narrow boats appear to fit the chambers on this length, when ascending or descending in pairs. I recall doing this in the past, so what is the width of these locks.

 

[zenataomm]

It was years ago, but I took a breasted pair of Woolwich through there.

[magpie patrick]

It does depend on the narrow boats doesn't it though. The last GU fleet pushed the limits on length and width compared to predecessors 

 

Derwent Mouth lock is quite a bit bigger than the others - I'd assumed so as to get Trent barges to wharves in Shardlow. The same reason is often quoted for the size of locks to Burton but that doesn't entirely make sense given that they are no as big, but I don't think they are quite standard for a pair of narrow boats either, and there is no logic as to why pairs would have been needed as far as Burton but not further 

[alan_fincher]

A now fairly old "BW Maximum Craft Dimensions"  document I have reports that "Stenson Lock is very tight to 14ft (4.27m) beam".

 

However Flamingo is significantly over 7' at some points, and we shared it with a modern narrow boat, without it appearing tight at any time.

 

(That said the volunteer lock keeper was initially insistent that we might be too long for the lock - complele bo**ocks, of course!)

 

The main problem we had with a "Grand Union" on that section was that for some locks when you emptied the lock, and the counter started to rise out of the water.  Some, (I think Aston is one?) are so silted there isn't the depth to float a full draughted old boat.  We had significant problems flushing out of them.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by alan_fincher

[matty40s]

Stenson is too tight to get 2 x modern 70 footers descending and out of the gates together.

[Heartland]

Thanks 

 

Yes, it is the reports that Trent Barges might reach Horninglow is a reason for the observation. It is also worth comparing that Preston Brook Tunnel as opened in 1775 was made to 13ft 6in wide. Whilst Shardlow became the main transhipment point for Trent Boats. The fact of making locks 2-6 to a width that seems to fit a narrow boat pair, that could be 14ft, would suggest that the 13ft 6in quote may be a bit flexible for a few inches at least. 

 

As to Mattys comments, are modern 70ft narrow boats wider?

 

As to the traders of their day, fly boats were light and perhaps a little narrower and such boats might have passed Locks 6-2 sharing a lock

 

That James Brindley decided in the width is another question as Hugh Henshall was still clerk of works when locks 6-2 were made.

 

 

[pete harrison]

30 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Yes, it is the reports that Trent Barges might reach Horninglow is a reason for the observation.

 

As to the traders of their day, fly boats were light and perhaps a little narrower and such boats might have passed Locks 6-2 sharing a lock

Bradshaw's edition of 1904 certainly gives maximum dimensions for vessels as 72'0'' x 13'6'' from Derwent Mouth to Horninglow Wharf. What this publication does not give is the actual dimensions of the locks, so if these vessel dimensions accounted for an inch or two of clearance it is quite feasible that modern narrow boats with a nominal beam of 6'10'' could pass through side by side.

 

The suggestion that 'fly boats were light and perhaps a little narrower' is a sweeping statement. All that 'fly' means is that a boat is allowed to work for 24 hours each day, and many boats worked like this from both small and large carriers including F.M.C. Ltd. and G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. where the boats involved were of standard construction. The lighter built and narrower boats for 'fly' use is often associated to the S.U.R.C.C.o., but in reality these purpose built fast boats represented less than 50% of those working fly' for that company - all a bit misleading really 

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

It does depend on the narrow boats doesn't it though. The last GU fleet pushed the limits on length and width compared to predecessors 

 

Derwent Mouth lock is quite a bit bigger than the others - I'd assumed so as to get Trent barges to wharves in Shardlow. The same reason is often quoted for the size of locks to Burton but that doesn't entirely make sense given that they are no as big, but I don't think they are quite standard for a pair of narrow boats either, and there is no logic as to why pairs would have been needed as far as Burton but not further 

It should be borne in mind that the boats of the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. were designed to fit the canals of the Grand Union Canal network. I am not at all sure that they pushed the limits on length and width but they were undoubtedly on the larger side of boats constructed at that time (B.C.N. day boats also got bigger in the latter days of construction - excluding Hampton boats). Having a nominal dimension of 71'6'' x 7'0 1/2'' G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. boats could fit on the vast majority of waterways across the midlands, but some boats were a little larger making them more challenging, whilst some were a little smaller making passage of narrower locks un-noticeable. This is still the situation nowadays, although exacerbated by some boats spreading a little and some locks narrowing a bit. My own G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. large Northwich motor has recently been measure at bang on 7'0'', although it was gauged as 7'0 1/2'' in 1936.

 

Again excluding B.C.N. day boats the longest narrow boats were those horse boats converted to counter sterned motors - some of which were several inches more than 72'  

[Richard T]

The shortest lock in the Trent Lock area is Bishops Meadow in Loughborough which is very tight with two 70ft boats in it, And until recently the top gates leaked badly so threatening to swamp boats going both up and down. I seem to recall reading somewhere that GUCC boats built for the Erewash were shorter than the others because of the length of this lock. Can this be confirmed as true or false?

[Dav and Pen]

We used to run our camping boats out of Stenson and I’m sure that Tadworth and Alton fitted in all the locks together down to Derwent mouth. The lock I remember as tight was Kegworth and going down had to be single and push the bow over to open the gate. Might be different now.

[pete harrison]

14 minutes ago, Richard T said:

The shortest lock in the Trent Lock area is Bishops Meadow in Loughborough which is very tight with two 70ft boats in it, And until recently the top gates leaked badly so threatening to swamp boats going both up and down. I seem to recall reading somewhere that GUCC boats built for the Erewash were shorter than the others because of the length of this lock. Can this be confirmed as true or false?

Erewash Canal Carrying Company Ltd. motors CYPRUS and ELM as well as buttys ASH and CEDAR were designed and built along very similar lines to the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. small Northwich design, the only difference being was that they are 12'' shorter than a small Northwich 

 

edit = the Erewash boats were nominally 70'6'' x 7'0 1/2''

Edited March 19, 2020 by pete harrison

[Richard T]

2 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Erewash Canal Carrying Company Ltd. motors CYPRUS and ELM as well as buttys ASH and CEDAR were designed and built along very similar lines to the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. small Northwich design, the only difference being was that they are 12'' shorter than a small Northwich 

Pete thank you for confirming that my memory was correct. Richard

[Richard T]

5 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

We used to run our camping boats out of Stenson and I’m sure that Tadworth and Alton fitted in all the locks together down to Derwent mouth. The lock I remember as tight was Kegworth and going down had to be single and push the bow over to open the gate. Might be different now.

Kegworth Deep lock was rebuilt in the 1970s as part of the Soar flood prevention schemes. Length is no longer a problem at it. It does however have other problems and there are regular sinkings at it because it fills in an unusual way and has a large cill. ( There is only one very large ground paddle and boaters tend to open the gate paddles too early and too quickly when filling the lock)

[Heartland]

I was wondering if Derwent Mouth Lock width has been published. John Smith had wide boats that operated to Horninglow and by previous observations had to fit the 14ft of Stenson. For the general Trent Boats to reach Shardlow, the width of Derwent Mouth Lock was presumably wider.

[colinwilks]

We took the GU pair Nuneaton and Brighton from Stenson to Derwent Mouth a few years ago without major incident. Just the usual stuff behind the gates. I am pretty sure a straight edge along the sides of each boat would measure over 6'10" wide. Both are a full 71'6" long.

If your enquiry is practical rather than theoretical I would enquire at Mercia Marina to find the widest one they've got in there. A pair of breasted boats still has a bit of "wiggle", which a widebeam does not, and we always singled out coming out of the locks, so I'm not sure about the comments about the tails being tight.

Edited March 30, 2020 by colinwilks

[pete harrison]

45 minutes ago, colinwilks said:

We took the GU pair Nuneaton and Brighton from Stenson to Derwent Mouth a few years ago without major incident. Just the usual stuff behind the gates. I am pretty sure a straight edge along the sides of each boat would measure over 6'10" wide. Both are a full 71'6" long.

I would be amazed if NUNEATON and BRIGHTON were anywhere near 6'10'' wide, especially as they were built with a nominal beam of 7'0½''

[colinwilks]

Good point, perhaps I should have written "well over".

[zenataomm]

I witnessed L&L Short Boat Shirley dimensions: -

Length : 18.9 metres ( 62 feet ) - Beam : 4.31 metres ( 14 feet 2 inches ) - Draft : 0.76 metres ( 2 feet 6 inches ).

......travel from Derwent Mouth to Stenson marina for lifting out prior to road transport to London.

 

Of course as this was probably about 30 years ago things may have moved.

[Heartland]

I came across an account of 1797, which puts all 6 locks from Horninglow at 14 ft wide. So all boats working to Shardlow and to Gainsbrough, Fossdyke etc had to confirm to that dimension, it would seem.

 

 

[Keeping Up]

Of course the stated width only applies if you can open both bottom gates fully. That never seems to be the case at Stenson, especially the offside gate.