Boat Safety and Coronavirus

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not unusual - whilst the granting of a certificate is left to a persons 'judgement', rather than the implementation of standards, such examples will continue to be seen.

OK so it is easy to rail against an examiner 'using their judgement' but just think for a moment of the converse. Suppose that there was no allowance for examiners to use judgement but to apply the rules rigidly without any recognition that a rule may be correct in general but needs adaptation for certain cases. Without the judgement option then we would hear far more complaints about 'them's just the rules' kind of inspection.

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I don't think the BSS should be abolished but it should be simplified as it seems far too open to interpretation and misunderstanding.

 

Regarding the bubble tester - some examiners do require this as they don't have the equipment to test for leaks. This is something to check when booking the examiner.

 

Inspection and testing of the gas  system is, for me,  the one benefit of the test . Your example demonstrates it might best be done by a qualified gas fitter rather than a surveyor.

 

I don't suppose anyone makes a living from doing BSS examinations. More thing to do to supplement income.

 

Isn't the date on the orange hose the date of manufacture?

Another point for debate as I understand its  the condition of the hose that is important , not the date  on it ?

The way with regulations is that the simpler they are the more they depend on judgement and interpretation.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

OK so it is easy to rail against an examiner 'using their judgement' but just think for a moment of the converse. Suppose that there was no allowance for examiners to use judgement but to apply the rules rigidly without any recognition that a rule may be correct in general but needs adaptation for certain cases. Without the judgement option then we would hear far more complaints about 'them's just the rules' kind of inspection.

So with that proposal, two identical boats, with 2 examiners - one boat could 'pass' and one boat could fail.

A boat can 'pass' one year, and at the next inspection 'fail'.

 

I suggest that is not much of a safety 'system'.

 

It simply needs a yes / no tick box

 

Example :

 

Gas locker conforms to requirements Y/N

Gas Hose is correctly dated Y/N

Gas hose is correct length Y/N

Gas Pipe is one continuous length Y/N

 

etc etc etc

 

It either does or it doesn't - there is no "well, considering the circumstances I think that it'll be OK"

 

[Momac]

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Gas Hose is correctly dated Y/N

Is that  a requirement ?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So with that proposal, two identical boats, with 2 examiners - one boat could 'pass' and one boat could fail.

A boat can 'pass' one year, and at the next inspection 'fail'.

 

I suggest that is not much of a safety 'system'.

 

It simply needs a yes / no tick box

 

Example :

 

Gas locker conforms to requirements Y/N

Gas Hose is correctly dated Y/N

Gas hose is correct length Y/N

Gas Pipe is one continuous length Y/N

 

etc etc etc

 

It either does or it doesn't - there is no "well, considering the circumstances I think that it'll be OK"

 

 

The trouble here, is sooner or later the chair polishers at BSS would add in "Appliance installed in compliance with manufacturer instructions?".

 

This of course leads straight into a world of pain for the examiner, who now has to identify the appliance, find, download and read end to end the MI, look up all the standards referred to in it, etc etc. Even the Smartgauge manual runs to over 30 pages, as an example. To read the Smartgauge manual end to end looking for installation breaches would take him an hour alone.  Some gas appliance installation manuals run to over 100 pages. 

 

 

[Athy]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

If you don't know what bodges people are capable of, and how it can resut in deaths,I suggest you read this as an example....

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/56a20e2040f0b667ce00002b/MAIBInvReport_2_2015.pdf

Good grief.

Apart from anything else, why on earth was this generator running at night while mother and daughter were asleep?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

Is that  a requirement ?

No, but it should be.

Industry recommendation is to replace every 5 years, which is why it has the date of manufacture on it.

Would your insurers pay-out if you had a gas leak and had not followed industry recommendations ?

 

 

Hoses

Even if your LPG hose looks in good condition, it should be replaced every 5 years, as it is impossible to see internal stress and damage. To check the date of manufacture, look at the body of the hose.

It is advised to carry out a visual inspection of your gas hose every so often for signs of brittleness, cracks and cuts.

Demanding operating conditions can also reduce a hose’s lifespan, so you should avoid dragging gas tubing along the ground and keep it away from direct sunlight.

When purchasing gas hosing, ensure it is manufactured to BS EN ISO 9000. BS3212 or BSEN1763.

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Athy said:

Good grief.

Apart from anything else, why on earth was this generator running at night while mother and daughter were asleep?

It was in the day .

The owner , who fitted and ran the generator was gas safe registered. 

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No, but it should be.

Industry recommendation is to replace every 5 years, which is why it has the date of manufacture on it.

That's what I thought . A recommendation and not a requirement of the BSS .

Why not ?

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No, but it should be.

Industry recommendation is to replace every 5 years, which is why it has the date of manufacture on it.

Would your insurers pay-out if you had a gas leak and had not followed industry recommendations ?

 

 

Hoses

Even if your LPG hose looks in good condition, it should be replaced every 5 years, as it is impossible to see internal stress and damage. To check the date of manufacture, look at the body of the hose.

It is advised to carry out a visual inspection of your gas hose every so often for signs of brittleness, cracks and cuts.

Demanding operating conditions can also reduce a hose’s lifespan, so you should avoid dragging gas tubing along the ground and keep it away from direct sunlight.

When purchasing gas hosing, ensure it is manufactured to BS EN ISO 9000. BS3212 or BSEN1763.

When quoting something like the above, it would be useful to include your source.

I'm not doubting it is a valid one, but one could probably find others that say something else. Certainly some manufacturers say it has a shelf life of up to 7 years if correctly stored, implying that you could have some installed with a date of 12 years ago that is not yet at 5 years of use.  That makes it rather hard to check!  It is often hard to find hose in chandlers that is not dated as several years ago, for example, (true for fuel as well as gas, of course).

Out of curiosity I broke into all the braided hoses to appliances  I replaced on one of our boats that were apparently as old as when the boat was built (1995).  Visually all appeared to be in perfect condition - probably unsurprising, as all were well installed, and not subject to any obvious stresses.

Of course the BSS requires no more than that they are in visually good condition - definitely no date requirements stated in the BSS.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That's what I thought . A recommendation and not a requirement of the BSS .

Why not ?

As far as I can see, it is not even an advisory, the hose requirements are simply :

 

All LPG hoses on the low pressure side:
 must be accessible for inspection along their entire length.
 must be marked to BS EN 16436 Class 2; BS EN 16436 Class 3; BS
3212 type 2; or equivalent.
 must be free of leaks, flaws, brittleness, cracking, abrasion, kinking,
‘soft’ spots or joins.
On hoses covered with metal braiding the braiding must be free of signs
of damage or deterioration including corrosion and kinking.

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

When quoting something like the above, it would be useful to include your source.

I'm not doubting it is a valid one, but one could probably find others that say something else. Certainly some manufacturers say it has a shelf life of up to 7 years if correctly stored, implying that you could have some installed with a date of 12 years ago that is not yet at 5 years of use.  That makes it rather hard to check!  It is often hard to find hose in chandlers that is not dated as several years ago, for example, (true for fuel as well as gas, of course).

Out of curiosity I broke into all the braided hoses to appliances  I replaced on one of our boats that were apparently as old as when the boat was built (1995).  Visually all appeared to be in perfect condition - probably unsurprising, as all were well installed, and not subject to any obvious stresses.

Of course the BSS requires no more than that they are in visually good condition - definitely no date requirements stated in the BSS.

 

No problem - 

 

https://www.dixonsofwesterhope.co.uk/technical/how-often-should-i-change-my-regulator-and-hose/

 

And, the Calor site :

 

[Guide to using flexible hoses and tubing for LPG applications

Hoses and tubing are relatively vulnerable equipment that plays a vital and uniquely valuable role in the LPG Gas installation and they should be selected and stored with care. Any supply should be confirmed as having valid certification to BS3212 or BSEN1763 and have been manufactured under a quality system registered to BS EN ISO 9000. Stock should be stored carefully, avoiding bright sunlight, dampness, abrasion and excessive loading.
Although no specific shelf life is usually quoted strict rotation should be maintained to avoid shortening the useful service life.

» Service life

BS3212 or BSEN1763 hoses should bear the year and name of manufacturer.
We have no specific recommendation for the exchange interval for vapour hoses, but it is considered that the normal useful service life of such hoses is 5 years.
Aggressive operating conditions or simple misuse may render the hose unfit for service in a shorter time than 5 years. The User of the hose carries responsibility for routinely checking visually the hose(s) for signs of abrasion, cuts, cracks, fading, brittleness, hot spots or other damage. If the User has doubts about hose integrity then arrangements should be made for a competent person to check and if necessary, fit a replacement(s).
Dealers and Calor Centre delivery persons, caravan park operators, fitters and others who regularly come into contact with flexible hose applications may also participate in this regular visual inspection, and make appropriate recommendations to the customer/owner of the hose concerned.

 

 

I will only buy hose from sources which offer a 'long life', and replace the boat hoses at 'expiry date'. I have used a marker to write the expiry date onto the hoses.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

50 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So with that proposal, two identical boats, with 2 examiners - one boat could 'pass' and one boat could fail.

A boat can 'pass' one year, and at the next inspection 'fail'.

 

I suggest that is not much of a safety 'system'.

 

It simply needs a yes / no tick box

 

Example :

 

Gas locker conforms to requirements Y/N

Gas Hose is correctly dated Y/N

Gas hose is correct length Y/N

Gas Pipe is one continuous length Y/N

 

etc etc etc

 

It either does or it doesn't - there is no "well, considering the circumstances I think that it'll be OK"

 

You mis-interpret what I said - which quite clearly indicates that two boats, only marginally different, may fail one and pass the other. 

 

To give a silly example. Suppose that the regs said that a safety valve must be brightly marked. One might be in a bright red - pass and another in dull red - fail. 

 

The only alternative to the use of judgement would likely be that both would fail.

 

That said, I did have the experience about 30 years ago of having a food hygiene visit from the local department (they did, back then) - the commercial kitchen had been professionally designed and only just built, not yet used. Said inspector tried to 'fail' on some spurious grounds. I responded by referring him to the professional designer and he withdrew his objection. Turned out a few months later that the relevant department was severely criticised by an official inspection for failing in their statutory work and doing consultancy instead! The lesson: know enough about what you are doing to be able to challenge anything that seems strange, in effect getting a second opinion. Best not to try if you are sailing close to the wind as you may end up with more things to correct than you did at first! As MtB has said, the closer you look the more you find.

[Momac]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have used a marker to write the expiry date onto the hoses.

 

 

Is that wise ?

Might the marker ink harm the hose?

A label on a piece of string might be better .

 

I note you have correctly identified the date on the hose does not reflect the number of years it has been in service.

 

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not unusual - whilst the granting of a certificate is left to a persons 'judgement', rather than the implementation of standards, such examples will continue to be seen.

I don't think anyone ever looked at the instalation this turned out to be ~"owner fit out", disguised as something else.

I did not take everything apart,  The previous BSC examiner was a very experienced surveyor, and popular locally. There was at least six contraventions. My boat is now safe, but I had some idea that it should have been when all these certificates were issued.

Edited March 29, 2020 by LadyG

[Balliol]

Picking up on the discussion regarding gas hoses I would like to pass on a couple of experiences regarding incidents that I have been involved in investigating (as a marine surveyor investigating insurance claims).

 

I do not intend to get bogged down in specific standards or BSS checking points, simply to highlight a couple of issues that seem to receive scant attention when a boat is inspected for BSS purposes but which have caused serious incidents.

 

1.    Gas hoses and split level hob/oven cookers. Many people have installed these with the hob directly above the oven. Often flexible hoses are used to connect the hob and oven. These hoses should not be used because the units are not regarded as portable, or gimballed. If used the hoses should be accessed for inspection throughout but in my experience often they are not inspected throughout because the hob is screwed down. Often metal braided hoses are used, the braiding being regarded as an enhancement, but in essence the braiding only serves to help reduce mechanical damage and in units which do not move there is no reason for that. Those points are just a broad pre-amble to the main point, which is that where hoses are used then in many types of these units the oven hose passes over the top of the oven / grill, and the hose to the hobs does the same. This often in a poorly ventilated area. In general hose manufacturers do not certify their hoses for use where ambient temperatures are likely to exceed a certain figure, usually in the range of 50 to 70 degrees centigrade. Ovens are normally used at 180 to 200 degrees centigrade. It doesn't take any great feat of imagination to imagine that in some cases the hoses will be exposed to temperatures in excess of say 50 degrees. The result is that over time the hoses denature, they soften and turn to a sticky mush (often not evident to inspection if braided), they can fail in themselves or simply blow off the swaged end fittings. I have seen two recent incidents where this happened, one an explosion and fire where the occupant miraculously escaped unharmed. In the second case the unfortunate occupant died. Do not use flexible hoses where they may be exposed to excess heat. Both boats had recent BSSC's.

 

2.   Gas ovens. Gas ovens in free standing cookers have a flue outlet somewhere at the back to vent the combustion gases from the oven. If the flue is too close to combustible materials then this can cause a fire. This happened last year on a boat with a recent BSSC.

 

In both cases BSS seemed to take little interest.

 

Balliol.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Balliol
Sorry, pressed wrong button!

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, Balliol said:

Picking up on the discussion regarding gas hoses I would like to pass on a couple of experiences regarding incidents that I have been involved in investigating (as a marine surveyor investigating insurance claims).

 

I do not intend to get bogged down in specific standards or BSS checking points, simply to highlight a couple of issues that receive scant attention when a boat is inspected for BSS purposes but which have caused serious incidents.

 

1.

Don't check for gas leaks with a match ...

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by TheBiscuits
Grammar

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Balliol said:

Picking up on the discussion regarding gas hoses I would like to pass on a couple of experiences regarding incidents that I have been involved in investigating (as a marine surveyor investigating insurance claims).

 

I do not intend to get bogged down in specific standards or BSS checking points, simply to highlight a couple of issues that receive scant attention when a boat is inspected for BSS purposes but which have caused serious incidents.

 

1.

 

??

 

I bet one of your comments relates to how the copper tail can easily be pulled /fall out of one of those braided gas hoses. 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

37 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't think anyone ever looked at the instalation this turned out to be ~"owner fit out", disguised as something else.

I did not take everything apart,  The previous BSC examiner was a very experienced surveyor, and popular locally. There was at least six contraventions. My boat is now safe, but I had some idea that it should have been when all these certificates were issued.

Did you have a full survey when you bought the boat?

 

[Athy]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

It was in the day .

The owner , who fitted and ran the generator was gas safe registered. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah yes, I've read the story in the report now.

 

This being a petrol-engined genny, I don't think his gas-safe qualification is relevant - but the report did mention that he installed heating systems, which would presumably include petrol/ oil-fired ones, professionally, so he should have known what he was doing.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Wrong thread.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Balliol]

33 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

??

 

I bet one of your comments relates to how the copper tail can easily be pulled /fall out of one of those braided gas hoses. 
 

Spot on Mike, as you have probably read. Don’t know why the original truncated post appeared after the edited version but I guess I don’t know how to use this forum yet. Perhaps type message in word, then post!

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Balliol said:

Spot on Mike, as you have probably read. Don’t know why the original truncated post appeared after the edited version but I guess I don’t know how to use this forum yet. Perhaps type message in word, then post!

 

 

Aha, yes just seen your update!

 

None of these problems should be occurring on liveaboards as the GSIUR require fixed appliances to be connected in rigid, not flexible, pipework, and the GSIUR applies to liveaboards. And for the reasons you outline, should too for leisure boats too.

 

Time for gas installation inspections to be done by gas bods perhaps. Or introduce an ACS course for BSS peeps so they can become GSR easily too. 

 

[Momac]

45 minutes ago, Athy said:

Ah yes, I've read the story in the report now.

 

This being a petrol-engined genny, I don't think his gas-safe qualification is relevant - but the report did mention that he installed heating systems, which would presumably include petrol/ oil-fired ones, professionally, so he should have known what he was doing.

Highly relevant .  Found guilty of gross negligence manslaughter.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2030010/gas-engineer-who-poisoned-his-girlfriend-and-her-daughter-10-to-death-after-botched-job-is-back-working/

.

[David Mack]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

None of these problems should be occurring on liveaboards as the GSIUR require fixed appliances to be connected in rigid, not flexible, pipework, and the GSIUR applies to liveaboards. And for the reasons you outline, should too for leisure boats too.

Does the BSS allow flexible hoses for connections to fixed built in appliances? I thought they are only to be used for portable appliances (which also require a chain or similar to prevent the hose taking any load).

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Does the BSS allow flexible hoses for connections to fixed built in appliances? I thought they are only to be used for portable appliances (which also require a chain or similar to prevent the hose taking any load).

 

I think the BSS is silent on the point.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Does the BSS allow flexible hoses for connections to fixed built in appliances? I thought they are only to be used for portable appliances (which also require a chain or similar to prevent the hose taking any load).

The BSS actually allows for complete 'flexible hose systems' if 'plumbed' in accordance with ISO 10239 as the RCD allows it, it would be 'odd' if a boat failed its BSS.

 

(Our 'Cat' is an 'all-hose' system)

 

BSS Section 7.9.6
Do ‘all‐hose’ systems comply fully with ISO 10239? 

Check that ‘allhose’ systems are fully compliant with ISO 10239.

‘All hose’ systems must fully comply with ISO 10239 as follows:
• each length of hose must be routed from within the cylinder locker or housing
directly to the individual appliance or appliance isolation valve; and,
• hoses must have permanently attached end fittings, such as swaged sleeve or
sleeve and threaded insert; and,
• hoses must not be routed through an engine compartment; and,
• hoses must be accessible for inspection over their entire length and connections
must be readily accessible; and,
• hose connections must be stress free, i.e. not subjected to tension or kinking
under any conditions of use; and,
• hoses must be supported at least at 1m intervals.

 

NOTE – ‘all‐hose’ systems are those not using rigid pipework and will generally be found on imported boats,
CE marked to the RCD, where the builder has chosen to apply ISO 10239.
NOTE – for multi‐appliance systems to ISO 10239, anticipate a manifold arrangement within the
cylinder locker or housing.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The BSS actually allows for complete 'flexible hose systems' if 'plumbed' in accordance with ISO 10239 as the RCD allows it, it would be 'odd' if a boat failed its BSS.

 

But an "All hose" system is not the same thing as a rigid system with final connection to fixed appliances with a flexible hose.