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Boat Safety and Coronavirus


StephenA

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Lets just say (a bit like my old school report) "sets himself very low standards which he consistently fail to achieve - room for improvement"

One step better than ''lacks focus''.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Lets just say (a bit like my old school report) "sets himself very low standards which he consistently fail to achieve - room for improvement"

 

ISTR mine saying something similar but even more cutting.

 

"Michael sets himself very low standards which he consistently achieves."

 

I was just so BORED at skool. I blame the teachers. 

 

The skools I went to were little more than a child-minding service. 

 

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

No.    I  think the BSS is an idiotic scheme  run by idiots .

Yeah waste of fecking time. ?

what we need is people like you Martyn to stand as an expert witness when a boater had died from CO poisoning. 
yep let’s scrap the BSS 

Edited by nigel carton
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3 minutes ago, nigel carton said:

Yeah waste of fecking time. ?

what we need is people like you Martyn to stand as an expert witness when a boater had died for CO poisoning. 
yep let’s scrap the BSS 

I din't say it should be scrapped.

Edit 

On second thoughts yes it should be scrapped 

Edited by MartynG
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2 minutes ago, nigel carton said:

Yeah waste of fecking time. ?

what we need is people like you Martyn to stand as an expert witness when a boater had died from CO poisoning. 
yep let’s scrap the BSS 

The problem is that some parts of the BSS are actually sensible - CO monitors, fire extinguishers etc. Those things can save lives. But then there is a lot of stuff in there that seems to be in there for no good reason and there seems to be no explanation of why they were included.

 

We know how many people have died from CO poisoning, we have figures on how many boat fires there have been (but no indication of how many fatalities have been avoided by the presence of fire extinguishers). How many fires have been avoided by the insistence of non plastic bleed lines, by the enforcement of fireproof fuel lines? 

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Boaters update confirms suspension to the BSS duration on continual review.

 

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-blogs-and-features/the-boaters-update/boaters-update-27-mar-2020#BSS

 

Temporary suspension of Boat Safety Scheme examinations

Following the Prime Minister’s announcement on 23 March 2020 regarding the UK’s response to the coronavirus crisis, the joint owners of the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) are allowing a temporary extension to safety certificates for those craft requiring an examination before14 April 2020.

Any future changes will be reviewed in respect of the Government’s most up to date advice and we will advise boat owners accordingly. In the meantime, Navigation Authorities and licensing bodies will maintain a record of BSS extensions. Boat owners are advised to check any implications for their boat’s insurance cover linked to the temporary waiver of BSS Certification with their broker or underwriter.

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5 minutes ago, StephenA said:

The problem is that some parts of the BSS are actually sensible - CO monitors, fire extinguishers etc. Those things can save lives. But then there is a lot of stuff in there that seems to be in there for no good reason and there seems to be no explanation of why they were included.

 

 

This is it, exactly. With no BSS there would be nothing to stop things like gas installations and diesel (or even petrol) installations being done in garden hose pipe held together with with jubilee clips and pots under the leaking joints for example. Or gas in HEP20, or petrol tanks and gas cylinders inside boats next to the solid fuel stoves. Mains electrical installations in bell wire, the stuff arrogant, ignorant and and over-confident DIYers are so fond of doing. It all needed stopping but of course they went too far, no lives have been saved so far by forcing labels on the fuel filler and gas locker, I'd wager. Or that plastic leak-off pipe thing. 

 

I remember discussing the MoT with my father in law when I was young, saying it was a bit invasive. He explained how it was before the MoT came in. His boss for example had taken the bench seat out of his car and stood a nice comfy sofa in its place. Not fixed down in any way. Boss reckoned he could use the brake pedal ok as long as he pulled firmly to the steering wheel when braking. This is the same sort of thing, which the MoT put a stop to. 

 

 

 

People do really basic dangerous stuff, without a safety scheme to reign them in.

 

 

 

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The CO alarm requirement was only introduced fairly recently . What does a once in 4 year inspection do for CO alarms? It doesn't need  a BSS to encourage people to have CO alarms 

Smoke alarms aren't a requirement but they are cheap and I bet most people have on on board .

I can check my own alarms and extinguishers . I don't have any oil or fuel leaks ad if there was such a leak I would deal with it.

 

The test on the on the gas system is for me the only potential benefit.

 

Sea boats don't need a BSS and I don't think people die on them for the lack of a BSS.

 

I think the BSS should be replaced with a much simpler test - gas and CO included.

 

 

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13 hours ago, MartynG said:

One step better than ''lacks focus''.

 

I remedied that in later life when I  bought not one but two (Both estates, one petrol, one diesel). ???

Edited by cuthound
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12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

I remember discussing the MoT with my father in law when I was young, saying it was a bit invasive. He explained how it was before the MoT came in. His boss for example had taken the bench seat out of his car and stood a nice comfy sofa in its place. Not fixed down in any way. Boss reckoned he could use the brake pedal ok as long as he pulled firmly to the steering wheel when braking. This is the same sort of thing, which the MoT put a stop to.

 

Reminds me of our first transport. A ex "Mothers Pride" van with a loose knacked old sofa in the back for us kids. ;)

 

Edited by mark99
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2 minutes ago, Athy said:

One former colleague of mine was sometimes wont to write a one-word report.

Trying.

An English teacher once said to a member of my class "Healey, you are a boor, B.O.O.R. Not Bore, B.O.R.E. Look it up."

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16 minutes ago, Athy said:

One former colleague of mine was sometimes wont to write a one-word report.

Trying.

 

Reminds me of the apocryphal tale of the employer who was asked to write a reference for a bloke who was the life and soul of the office and great to have around, but fundamentally lazy and did very little work. He eventually submitted the following double-entendre:

 

"If you can get him to work for you, you will indeed be lucky!"

 

 

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On 27/03/2020 at 18:19, MartynG said:

No.    I  think the BSS is an idiotic scheme  run by idiots .

Not at all, very good career choice, just increase fees with every amended certificate.

I've had my BSC examination done by  a Gas guy, it had three or four previous examinations, yet none picked up cooker not installed according to manu instructions and likely never properly inspected, also one examiner insisted on a bubble tester. The gas rated BSC examiner cleaned up the original instal, simplyfying pipework, [which was leaking very slightly, supported pipework and put the test point where it should be, also fitted cooker as per manuf instructions, which even I could tell was much safer. No bubble tester. One new label, one new gas cut off [the bottle valve]

£100 for the work, clear explanation of the rules and other helpful tips.

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I've had my BSC examination done by  a Gas guy, it had three or four previous examinations, yet none picked up cooker not installed ………………………...

Not unusual - whilst the granting of a certificate is left to a persons 'judgement', rather than the implementation of standards, such examples will continue to be seen.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not unusual - whilst the granting of a certificate is left to a persons 'judgement', rather than the implementation of standards, such examples will continue to be seen.

 

The thing few people realise is the sheer amount of time it takes to actually consider and properly examine/check in full detail, line by line, items in a specification. To properly check every single paragraph in the BSS handbook I reckon would be long hard day's work, so things get skipped. The examiner WILL find him or herself making judgement calls and leaving bits out to either save time or he think he knows what he will see if he clears all the crap out of a cupboard to look for gas pipe joints that shouldn't be there or pulls the cooker out to look behind and look for and actually read the expiry date label on the flexible hose. Certainly this is the way with landlord gas safety inspections. I could spend a whole day in a house doing one truly properly, actually looking up all the standards that are referred to in other standards and reading the instruction books for the various appliances and checking the details of how they are installed. Shall I spend five or ten minutes leafing through the boiler manual looking up the actual clearance requirements for this particula boiler from combustible surfaces? Or shall I just look, see a 50mm space and just assume that's enough? Same for dozens or hundreds of details. The fact is, one ends up making assumptions based on what one has seen so far because there is a pressure to do the examination for usually, not much money. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Not at all, very good career choice, just increase fees with every amended certificate.

I've had my BSC examination done by  a Gas guy, it had three or four previous examinations, yet none picked up cooker not installed according to manu instructions and likely never properly inspected, also one examiner insisted on a bubble tester. The gas rated BSC examiner cleaned up the original instal, simplyfying pipework, [which was leaking very slightly, supported pipework and put the test point where it should be, also fitted cooker as per manuf instructions, which even I could tell was much safer. No bubble tester. One new label, one new gas cut off [the bottle valve]

£100 for the work, clear explanation of the rules and other helpful tips.

I don't think the BSS should be abolished but it should be simplified as it seems far too open to interpretation and misunderstanding.

 

Regarding the bubble tester - some examiners do require this as they don't have the equipment to test for leaks. This is something to check when booking the examiner.

 

Inspection and testing of the gas  system is, for me,  the one benefit of the test . Your example demonstrates it might best be done by a qualified gas fitter rather than a surveyor.

 

I don't suppose anyone makes a living from doing BSS examinations. More thing to do to supplement income.

 

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

............... actually read the expiry date label on the flexible hose. 

Isn't the date on the orange hose the date of manufacture?

Another point for debate as I understand its  the condition of the hose that is important , not the date  on it ?

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7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The thing few people realise is the sheer amount of time it takes to actually consider and properly examine/check in full detail, line by line, items in a specification. To properly check every single paragraph in the BSS handbook I reckon would be long hard day's work, so things get skipped. The examiner WILL find him or herself making judgement calls and leaving bits out to either save time or he think he knows what he will see if he clears all the crap out of a cupboard to look for gas pipe joints that shouldn't be there or pulls the cooker out to look behind and look for and actually read the expiry date label on the flexible hose. Certainly this is the way with landlord gas safety inspections. I could spend a whole day in a house doing one truly properly, actually looking up all the standards that are referred to in other standards and reading the instruction books for the various appliances and checking the details of how they are installed. Shall I spend five or ten minutes leafing through the boiler manual looking up the actual clearance requirements for this particula boiler from combustible surfaces? Or shall I just look, see a 50mm space and just assume that's enough? Same for dozens or hundreds of details. The fact is, one ends up making assumptions based on what one has seen so far because there is a pressure to do the examination for usually, not much money. 

 

 

I fully agree that is the case, but should it be ?

 

I have posted many times over the years examples very 'poor' BSS examinations, and to repeat :

 

1) Walking past fire extinguishers with a large printed 'use by date' that expired several year previous.

2) Insisting that an 'advisory' item (RCD) was mandatory and would not issue the certificate until one was fitted

3) Sat in the saloon without even looking around the boat and said "it passed last time so I'll assume everything is still OK"

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

2) Insisting that an 'advisory' item (RCD) was mandatory and would not issue the certificate until one was fitted

 

Ah now this raises another hobby horse of mine. It should not be a "Pass Certificate" that is issued or can be withheld. It should be a "Report", issued regardless. The report would list any flaws found, so the boat owner has a written record of EXACTLY what the examiner thinks needs fixing, along with a formal process for challenging it if the boater feels the examiner is wrong. Withholding documentation and just telling the boater he needs 'X' verbally, is pretty unsatisfactory in my opinion.

 

Or is a formal written "Fail" certificate issued in the case of a fail? I don't know, all my boats have always passed first go!

 

 

 

 

So far......

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Or is a formal written "Fail" certificate issued in the case of a fail?

Nope. The examiner either issues the certificate or he doesn’t. 

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Without wanting to upset too many people the initials on  the issued paperwork say BSSER- which for those who don't know are short for Boat Safety Scheme Examination Report, not a "pass certificate".

And the people who say the boat should have a bubble tester are not Gas Safe Registered to do a soundness test on a "liveaboard, residential" boat.

It is not a requirement to have one, but if one is fitted ( in the gas locker) a non Gas Safe examiner can do a soundness test on a "live aboard, residential boat.

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On 27/03/2020 at 21:17, MartynG said:

The CO alarm requirement was only introduced fairly recently . What does a once in 4 year inspection do for CO alarms? It doesn't need  a BSS to encourage people to have CO alarms 

Smoke alarms aren't a requirement but they are cheap and I bet most people have on on board .

I can check my own alarms and extinguishers . I don't have any oil or fuel leaks ad if there was such a leak I would deal with it.

 

The test on the on the gas system is for me the only potential benefit.

 

Sea boats don't need a BSS and I don't think people die on them for the lack of a BSS.

 

I think the BSS should be replaced with a much simpler test - gas and CO included.

 

 


If you don't know what bodges people are capable of, and how it can resut in deaths,I suggest you read this as an example....

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/56a20e2040f0b667ce00002b/MAIBInvReport_2_2015.pdf

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Yachting Monthly were trying to find out figures for gas accidents, Strange that Canal Boats should be mentioned in light of the BSS requirements.

 

We asked the Marine Accident Investigation Board (MAIB) for details of recent cases where gas bottles were involved in explosions and fires on leisure craft. Steven Clinch, the Chief Inspector of Marine Accidents, gave us a dossier with 18 reported incidents ‘of interest’, most of them within the last 10 years. Many involve motorboats and canal boats, but they also include sailing boat incidents, one resulting in a known fatality.

 

So, the MAIB only know of 18 incidents (mostly) within the last 10 years covering about 400,000 leisure boats.

 

 

Yachting Monthly set up their 'crash boat' and set up a gas explosion to see what happens.

 

Minutes later, the Crash Test Boat Team sped to the wreck in two RIBs. Gruesomely floating in the water was an ‘amputated’ leg from one of the Crash Test dummies, complete with sailing boot. Next we recovered the torso, cut in half and still wearing its red oilskin jacket. The dummy had been placed standing in the cockpit beside the companionway.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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