Boat Safety and Coronavirus

[ditchcrawler]

15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yeah we had a 1 litre glass Kilner jar in our science lab nearly full of mercury, must have weighed about 30kg and we used to play about with it and the contents unsupervised at lunchtimes. Can you imagine dropping it!!

 

 

 

You could turn all your pennies silver then put them back in your pocket to show people later

[StephenA]

2 hours ago, Rob-M said:

Has anybody had a response from CRT regarding extending the BSS end date...?  I've not had a reply to my email and their advice on this mornings Coronavirus update is still showing they will be providing advice soon.

I just asked them about this on their post on Facebook

[StephenA]

They say they still don't know

[system 4-50]

Any BSS inspectors offering inspection by drone yet?

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, StephenA said:

They say they still don't know

I know it's irritating if you need a certificate, but the BSS is not an internal department at CRT they can just call to heel - it's a separate Quango that answers mainly to itself but with extensive support from CRT, EA and others nationally.

 

I'm not an apologist for CRT or BSS - if they need slapping I'll slap quite cheerfully, but in this case it is NOT CRT's decision to make.

 

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I know it's irritating if you need a certificate, but the BSS is not an internal department at CRT they can just call to heel - it's a separate Quango that answers mainly to itself but with extensive support from CRT, EA and others nationally.

 

I'm not an apologist for CRT or BSS - if they need slapping I'll slap quite cheerfully, but in this case it is NOT CRT's decision to make.

 

Yes, but

CRT require us to have a BSS, so its up to them to state that an up to date BSS is not required just now, especially if one is trying to renew a licence  

(or book a passage ? ).

 

................Dave

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Yes, but

CRT require us to have a BSS, so its up to them to state that an up to date BSS is not required just now, especially if one is trying to renew a licence  

(or book a passage ? ).

 

................Dave

Passages are all cancelled until July (for now ... I wouldn't rely on a July/August/September booking if I were you!)

 

The BSS is taken to satisfy the British Waterways Act 1995

17

(3) 

(a)

the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel;

 

So I accept CRT could "accept" that they are satisfied that 5 years ago was good enough for now, but that opens a whole other can of worms.  My Craftinsure policy requires me to have a valid BSS for the insurance to be valid.  Not just a "satisfies the board" as per the 1995 act, but an actual valid BSS certificate. 

 

The only way this can happen is if the BSS office extend all expiring or already expired BSS certificates by 6 months or 12 months or even another 4 years ... I can hear the screams from those who pay to be BSS inspectors now!

Edited March 26, 2020 by TheBiscuits

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Passages are all cancelled until July (for now ... I wouldn't rely on a July/August/September booking if I were you!)

 

The BSS is taken to satisfy the British Waterways Act 1995

17

(3) 

(a)

the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel;

 

So I accept CRT could "accept" that they are satisfied that 5 years ago was good enough for now, but that opens a whole other can of worms.  My Craftinsure policy requires me to have a valid BSS for the insurance to be valid.  Not just a "satisfies the board" as per the 1995 act, but an actual valid BSS certificate. 

 

The only way this can happen is if the BSS office extend all expiring or already expired BSS certificates by 6 months or 12 months or even another 4 years ... I can hear the screams from those who pay to be BSS inspectors now!

They are self employed so the govment pays them ?

But if they have set themselves up as little one man companies and pay themselves with dividends then they are stuffed. (a lot of people who do work related to the construction industry have been pushed to take this route but I don't know if many BSS people have done this)

 

...............Dave

[Momac]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The only way this can happen is if the BSS office extend all expiring or already expired BSS certificates by 6 months or 12 months or even another 4 years ... 

That would be nice.

Unfortunately being nice is not in their job description.

 

 

36 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 the BSS is not an internal department at CRT 

 

The Boat Safety Scheme is owned by C&RT and the EA

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/

 

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The Boat Safety Scheme is owned by C&RT and the EA

 

Correct, but as an autonomous agency like I said.  CRT can not simply tell BSS what to do, even though the answer is obvious - do like the MOT certificate and extend them for 6 months or more so the "old" ones are still valid certificates.

 

It does not matter if the BSS inspectors scream blue murder, by the time they are paying a £960 fine (for non-essential travel) every time they go out to do a £140 BSS test they will soon stop crying!

 

14 minutes ago, dmr said:

They are self employed

Yeah.  I'm so pleased I decided to keep my Roving Trader business licence when CRT offered me the chance to reduce my renewal fees by dropping it to a standard Pleasure Boat licence. 

 

I figured that CRT are going to be desperately short of funds this year, and I had already paid the year up front so I would keep it and they could keep the difference on me.  Funny old world, isn't it!

 

 

[Rob-M]

8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I know it's irritating if you need a certificate, but the BSS is not an internal department at CRT they can just call to heel - it's a separate Quango that answers mainly to itself but with extensive support from CRT, EA and others nationally.

 

I'm not an apologist for CRT or BSS - if they need slapping I'll slap quite cheerfully, but in this case it is NOT CRT's decision to make.

 

But the statement from the BSS relating to Coronavirus is check with your navigation authority.

 

[Momac]

7 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

It does not matter if the BSS inspectors scream blue murder, by the time they are paying a £960 fine (for non-essential travel) every time they go out to do a £140 BSS test they will soon stop crying!

Maybe they should do the BSS from their home?

 

Travel for work is still permitted providing that work cannot be done from home.

 

My BSS was booked for the weekend . I don't suppose he will turn up .

[AndrewIC]

8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The BSS is taken to satisfy the British Waterways Act 1995

17 (3) (a)

the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel;

Who or what defines that the BSS represents the “standards applicable” in respect of the BW Act? Is that linkage enshrined in legislation somewhere?

[BEngo]

I hope CRT are in discussions with all the other Navigation bodies to try to agree a coordinated position. Until they get to that it would be better to say nothing more than they have.  I also think that the BSS is probably one of CRT's lesser problems right now.

 

One, at least, of the boaters organisations is on the case, and CRT have publicly acknowledged the need to do summat.  Give them a chance please.

 

N

[Momac]

It does seem to me a C&RT matter as to whether the BSS requirement is temporarily suspended. The parallel with the MOT test being extended  is good one. 

 

Without a valid BSS certificate the C&RT system does not allow license fees to be paid. I cannot presently license my boat even if I wanted to (its off water and would ordinarily have been licensed from April). I dare say others are in the same situation.

It seems to me in the present situation  the risks to the examiners are greater than the benefit. The right thing to do is relax the BSS certificate requirement but remind boaters that they are obliged to maintain the boat in compliance with BSS at all times.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

It does not matter if the BSS inspectors scream blue murder, by the time they are paying a £960 fine (for non-essential travel) every time they go out to do a £140 BSS test they will soon stop crying!

Without amending the 1995 Act, or agreeing to an MOT type 'extension' it is a legal requirement to have a BSSC (on relevant waters) therefore, surely, it must be 'essential travel' to issue one, or, the boat owner is breaking the law.

 

[MtB]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

Yes, but

CRT require us to have a BSS, so its up to them to state that an up to date BSS is not required just now, especially if one is trying to renew a licence  

(or book a passage ? ).

 

................Dave

 

Do they? I thought it was the law that required it. 

 

Ok being pedantic, the law actually says "the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel",

and CRT seem to be the body deciding which standards are applicable to that vessel, so I guess you are right. CRT decide the standards, so it is CRT requiring a BSS ticket. 

 

This is however reminding me of the debacle that led to CORGI being replaced with Gas Safe Register. Where does it say who decides what the standards applicable to that vessel actually are, I wonder?

 

Is it within CRT's powers to decide a different standard from BSS is applicable? Temporarily, perhaps? 

 

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Do they? I thought it was the law that required it. 

 

Ok being pedantic, the law actually says "the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel",

and CRT seem to be the body deciding which standards are applicable to that vessel, so I guess you are right. CRT decide the standards, so it is CRT requiring a BSS ticket. 

 

This is however reminding me of the debacle that led to CORGI being replaced with Gas Safe Register. Where does it say who decides what the standards applicable to that vessel actually are, I wonder?

 

Is it within CRT's powers to decide a different standard from BSS is applicable? Temporarily, perhaps? 

 

 

Do all navigation authorities require a BSS?  I think the answer is no (not sure) so it must be within CRTs power to have decided that they require one. I don't think the BSS itself is enshrined in any law. And do not CRT to some extent "own" BSS?

 

Anyway, Ive got a slight sore throat and a very marginal cough. I strongly suspect its not the virus but I can't invite the BSS man onto the boat knowing that he is likely to visit other boats afterwards.  that would be reckless and quite possibly criminal.

 

.................Dave

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Do all navigation authorities require a BSS?  I think the answer is no (not sure) so it must be within CRTs power to have decided that they require one. I don't think the BSS itself is enshrined in any law. And do not CRT to some extent "own" BSS?

 

Yes I agree. The law only states your boat must meet "the standards applicable to that vessel" without specifying what those standard are or who gets to ay what they are.  CRT appear to have decided for themselves that "the standards applicable to that vessel" are the BSS examination, so perhaps they have the power to choose some other standard instead, if the fancy takes them. 

 

Or given they jointly 'own' BSS, they could instruct BSS to lengthen the period for which the stifficates are valid. 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes I agree. The law only states your boat must meet "the standards applicable to that vessel" without specifying what those standard are or who gets to ay what they are.  CRT appear to have decided for themselves that "the standards applicable to that vessel" are the BSS examination, so perhaps they have the power to choose some other standard instead, if the fancy takes them. 

 

Or given they jointly 'own' BSS, they could instruct BSS to lengthen the period for which the stifficates are valid. 

 

 

 

Is that actually a Law, will a policeman come and arrest you if you don't do it

[BEngo]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes I agree. The law only states your boat must meet "the standards applicable to that vessel" without specifying what those standard are or who gets to ay what they are.  CRT appear to have decided for themselves that "the standards applicable to that vessel" are the BSS examination, so perhaps they have the power to choose some other standard instead, if the fancy takes them. 

 

Or given they jointly 'own' BSS, they could instruct BSS to lengthen the period for which the stifficates are valid. 

 

 

 

Legally, the 1995 Act gave BW, now CRT,  the power to apply construction standards to boats, if they wanted .  The Act did not  require BW to apply standards.  Nor did it specify how or by who the Standards were set.

 

At the same time as the Act was in Parliament, BW and thd EA set up the Boat Safety  scheme, with a non technical Manager, to define some standards, an  set up a testing regime .   The EA needed the 'Standards' to not  conflict with the (self-certified) Thames Launch rules, which I Think were enshrined in by-laws.  That provided a starting point, which was over elaborated by collecting all the bees in the various bonnets of the then current group of inland marine Surveyors.  I was heavily involved with the technical side of the set-up  and pushed hard for the technical review that followed  soon after the scheme imposition showed that (as BW and the EA had been repeatedly told), the first version was inadequate in many ways.

 

After that EA and BW pushed the BSS Office off to arms length and strong armed the various smaller navigation authorities into adopting it.

 

 

There is no impediment to  CRT or IMO the EA relaxing the requirement, either short term or indefinitely.

 

 

N

 

 

[StephenA]

C&RT not budging at all..

 

 

So you have to travel to your boat and possibly move it.

Edited March 27, 2020 by StephenA

[Rob-M]

11 minutes ago, StephenA said:

C&RT not budging at all..

 

 

So you have to travel to your boat and possibly move it.

Hopefully the police will understand that if I get stopped driving to our boat.  I'll give my examiner a call to see if he is still working.

 

[StephenA]

Just now, Rob-M said:

Hopefully the police will understand that if I get stopped driving to our boat.  I'll give my examiner a call to see if he is still working.

 

We were booked in at Norbury because it's convenient and if any work needs doing then they do it and get things sorted for us. Norbury are currently closed for business.

 

[dmr]

?

8 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Legally, the 1995 Act gave BW, now CRT,  the power to apply construction standards to boats, if they wanted .  The Act did not  require BW to apply standards.  Nor did it specify how or by who the Standards were set.

 

At the same time as the Act was in Parliament, BW and thd EA set up the Boat Safety  scheme, with a non technical Manager, to define some standards, an  set up a testing regime .   The EA needed the 'Standards' to not  conflict with the (self-certified) Thames Launch rules, which I Think were enshrined in by-laws.  That provided a starting point, which was over elaborated by collecting all the bees in the various bonnets of the then current group of inland marine Surveyors.  I was heavily involved with the technical side of the set-up  and pushed hard for the technical review that followed  soon after the scheme imposition showed that (as BW and the EA had been repeatedly told), the first version was inadequate in many ways.

 

After that EA and BW pushed the BSS Office off to arms length and strong armed the various smaller navigation authorities into adopting it.

 

 

There is no impediment to  CRT or IMO the EA relaxing the requirement, either short term or indefinitely.

 

 

N

 

 

Interesting post, and that's a good phrase.

 

It would be interesting to estimate how many lives will be lot by suspending the BSS, or how many might be lost to the virus by continuing examinations. In fact it would be lovely to estimate how many lives the BSS has saved since its inception.

As a previous owner of many old vehicles (with resulting extensive MOT welding repairs) I noted the statistic (probably untrue) that no serious accident had ever been attributed to a corrosion structural failure of a car or van.

 

All of the BSS is good, but have those rules about the design of the diesel fill point (for example) prevented any significant accidents?

 

.................Dave