Middle Level Licencing arrangements

[Scholar Gypsy]

25 minutes ago, BoatyB said:

Hi all

 

First time posting. I'm very concerned about this. I'm based on the Middle Level and would like to stay there. If there's a £100 Anglia Pass fee to pay, then that's fine. But, if I'm reading correctly, it sounds like I MUST also get a license for the adjacent waterways "Great Ouse system and River Nene registration charges (these registration charges also cover use of the Lincolnshire Waterways and the River Stour)", as found here: Anglian Waterways Charges

 

Is this right? I'm really hoping not, because it seems that I would have to pay £1,091.62 (56ft narrowboat) and also the £100 Anglia Pass for a total of £1,191.62.

 

Can someone please clarify this for me? I'd hate to see my yearly cost jump up this much and I simply just don't think I could afford it!

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  I think you have three options, for your annual licence (which will indeed be of the order of £1,000) :

• Middle Level Licence
• Great/Ouse Anglian licence, plus the Anglian Pass
• CRT/EA gold licence, plus (except until 31/12/2021) the Anglian Pass 

In the medium term, the MLC will need to agree some revenue sharing arrangements if the second and third options are to work for them. Otherwise they may try to insist that boats based on the ML take  the first option.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  I think you have three options, for your annual licence (which will indeed be of the order of £1,000) :

• Middle Level Licence
• Great/Ouse Anglian licence, plus the Anglian Pass
• CRT/EA gold licence, plus (except until 31/12/2021) the Anglian Pass 

In the medium term, the MLC will need to agree some revenue sharing arrangements if the second and third options are to work for them. Otherwise they may try to insist that boats based on the ML take  the first option.

 

 

It seems that in many areas of boating where folks have been getting "something for nothing" the times they are a changing.

C&RT licences are now beam as well as length based.

Marinas are now charging 'excess charges' for widebeams

MLC charging to use their waters.

 

The times of cheap boating are gone. 

[erivers]

Quite disgraceful that there is still no proper Schedule of Registration Charges on the Middle Level website - merely a link to a third-party site.

Not the only glaring omission, of course, because neither is the final (approved?) version of the ML 2019 Byelaws - the only vehicle for enforcement of registration and charges - anywhere to be seen although we are told that those byelaws have now finally been approved by DEFRA. 

[BoatyB]

1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  I think you have three options, for your annual licence (which will indeed be of the order of £1,000) :

• Middle Level Licence
• Great/Ouse Anglian licence, plus the Anglian Pass
• CRT/EA gold licence, plus (except until 31/12/2021) the Anglian Pass 

In the medium term, the MLC will need to agree some revenue sharing arrangements if the second and third options are to work for them. Otherwise they may try to insist that boats based on the ML take  the first option.

 

I haven't seen anywhere to get just the Middle Level License. I've been going round and round these websites but can only see the Anglia Pass, not just the Middle Level License. Could someone please provide a link to this?

[nbfiresprite]

45 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  I think you have three options, for your annual licence (which will indeed be of the order of £1,000) :

• Middle Level Licence
• Great/Ouse Anglian licence, plus the Anglian Pass
• CRT/EA gold licence, plus (except until 31/12/2021) the Anglian Pass 

In the medium term, the MLC will need to agree some revenue sharing arrangements if the second and third options are to work for them. Otherwise they may try to insist that boats based on the ML take  the first option.

 

It depends where the boat has it's home mooring. For waters you are based on became the the main Navagtion Authority for licencing. The only acception being the CRT/Gold licence.  

 

For example if the boat is based on the Middle Level (Home mooring required) then a Middle Level Licence is require plus the Anglain Pass.

And if based on EA Waters then a EA licence plus the Anglain Pass

or it based on the Cam, the Cam licence plus the Anglain Pass

 

As for revenue sharing arrangements that is what the Anglian Pass is for, The revenue from this is spit between the other two Navagtion Authorities on agree formula, of which there are three depending on the mix. In the case of the Gold licence, the spit it between the Middle Level and The Cam. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

2 minutes ago, BoatyB said:

 

I haven't seen anywhere to get just the Middle Level License. I've been going round and round these websites but can only see the Anglia Pass, not just the Middle Level License. Could someone please provide a link to this?

The 2021-22 application form is on the right here:  https://middlelevel.gov.uk/navigation/

[nbfiresprite]

2 minutes ago, BoatyB said:

 

I haven't seen anywhere to get just the Middle Level License. I've been going round and round these websites but can only see the Anglia Pass, not just the Middle Level License. Could someone please provide a link to this?

 

https://middlelevel.gov.uk/navigation/

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 minute ago, nbfiresprite said:

 

It depends where the boat has it's home mooring. For waters you are based on became the the main Navagtion Authority for licencing. The only acception being the CRT/Gold licence.  

 

For example if the boat is based on the Middle Level (Home mooring required) then a Middle Level Licence is require plus the Anglain Pass.

And if based on EA Waters then a EA licence plus the Anglain Pass

or it based on the Cam, the Cam licence plus the Anglain Pass

 

As for revenue sharing arrangements that is what the Anglian Pass is for, The revenue from this is spit between the other two Navagtion Authorities on agree formula, of which there are three depending on the mix. In the case of the Gold licence, the spit it between the Middle Level and The Cam. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure your last point is correct. My understanding is that at present MLC and Camcon get nothing from the Gold licence scheme: that is purely between CRT and EA. The MLC hope to join it from 2022 onwards, but that is far from a done deal!  

[BoatyB]

3 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

The 2021-22 application form is on the right here:  https://middlelevel.gov.uk/navigation/

Thanks, I've found the form and the fees refer to the Anglian Waterways Charges, but the only thing on there is about the £100 Anglia Pass. What's the actual annual fee for the Middle Level License itself? Or is it simply the same as the "Great Ouse system and River Nene registration charges (these registration charges also cover use of the Lincolnshire Waterways and the River Stour)" fees?

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 minute ago, BoatyB said:

Thanks, I've found the form and the fees refer to the Anglian Waterways Charges, but the only thing on there is about the £100 Anglia Pass. What's the actual annual fee for the Middle Level License itself? Or is it simply the same as the "Great Ouse system and River Nene registration charges (these registration charges also cover use of the Lincolnshire Waterways and the River Stour)" fees?

 

Yes, that's correct. All the MLC fees (both annual and short term visitor) are the same as the corresponding EA (Anglian) fees.

https://3rwzrk3imltm11ru71g1sxd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Licence-Charges-2021-22-v2.pdf

[BoatyB]

1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

 

Yes, that's correct. All the MLC fees (both annual and short term visitor) are the same as the corresponding EA (Anglian) fees.

https://3rwzrk3imltm11ru71g1sxd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Licence-Charges-2021-22-v2.pdf

 

That's brilliant (well, not the situation!) thank you!

[nbfiresprite]

1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I'm not sure your last point is correct. My understanding is that at present MLC and Camcon get nothing from the Gold licence scheme: that is purely between CRT and EA. The MLC hope to join it from 2022 onwards, but that is far from a done deal!  

 

2 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I'm not sure your last point is correct. My understanding is that at present MLC and Camcon get nothing from the Gold licence scheme: that is purely between CRT and EA. The MLC hope to join it from 2022 onwards, but that is far from a done deal!  

It is correct for that it what the Anglain Pass is for, And it is why from next year Gold licence holders will require a Anglain Pass for the Middle Level and the Cam. 

[erivers]

The ML registration fee is the same amount as the EA Anglian fee - for your boat £1,091.62.     Why the ML cannot publish this information clearly on its own website and application form remains a mystery.

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 minute ago, nbfiresprite said:

 

It is correct for that it what the Anglain Pass is for, And it is why from next year Gold licence holders will require a Anglain Pass for the Middle Level and the Cam. 

I'm not convinced.  There is clearly an arrangement (though  I have not seen it written down anywhere) that shares the income (£50, 75 or £100 per boat, so not much) the EA collect for Anglian passes between themselves (including admin costs), MLC, and Camcon.  But that does not imply that the MLC get any of the income the EA get from the main gold licence fee.  That may happen in 2022, we shall see. 

 

I am afraid this whole system has been designed without thinking about how boaters might behave or the incentives it creates. For example someone who is based on the ML but wants to visit the canal network each year will clearly want a gold licence plus an Anglian pass, but that doesn't yet work financially for the MLC, and as you say above the MLC may well try to insist such a boater has an annual licence from MLC, plus whatever extra licences are needed for CRT and EA waterways!  

[nbfiresprite]

Just now, Scholar Gypsy said:

I'm not convinced.  There is clearly an arrangement (though  I have not seen it written down anywhere) that shares the income (£50, 75 or £100 per boat, so not much) the EA collect for Anglian passes between themselves (including admin costs), MLC, and Camcon.  But that does not imply that the MLC get any of the income the EA get from the main gold licence fee.  That may happen in 2022, we shall see. 

 

I am afraid this whole system has been designed without thinking about how boaters might behave or the incentives it creates. For example someone who is based on the ML but wants to visit the canal network each year will clearly want a gold licence plus an Anglian pass, but that doesn't yet work financially for the MLC, and as you say above the MLC may well try to insist such a boater has an annual licence from MLC, plus whatever extra licences are needed for CRT and EA waterways!  

 

That is aready the case, people in the marina who had EA licences before, Are now directed to apply to the Middle Level instead by EA when they tried to renew. You find that it is the same with Cam. The waters where the boat has its home mooring is the Navagtion Authority for licencing.

[David Mack]

33 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

For example someone who is based on the ML but wants to visit the canal network each year will clearly want a gold licence plus an Anglian pass, but that doesn't yet work financially for the MLC, and as you say above the MLC may well try to insist such a boater has an annual licence from MLC, plus whatever extra licences are needed for CRT and EA waterways!  

So either apply to CRT for a gold licence, as a CCer, so no home mooring required, and apply for an Anglian pass from MLC.

Or get a MLC licence and Anglian pass, which covers all the East Anglian waterways, and buy a short term CRT licence for the duration of the canal part of the boating.

[BoatyB]

I've already started messaging marinas outside the Middle Level after today's advice. The attraction of our current marina, even though the annual price is a bit higher than those elsewhere, was that the Middle Level was license free. If I have to pay an extra £1000 a year, I might as well move to another river and save money overall!