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Looking for an alternative point of view on this matter from anyone who may have any comments, opinion, criticism or feedback.

Its a 70x12 with full ballast and flooring already in place, the idea is to get rid of radiators "heating" the ceiling of interior and instead install underfloor heating (using low profile system of roughly 2-2.5cm thickness) for a comfy warm internal climate throughout the year. The system would be installed on top of plywood flooring (unlike using screed in place of ballast itself). Not the tallest boaters so the loss in height wouldnt impact us as much as our taller guests visiting for a weekend on the cut.

 

The concept is to use webasto diesel heater connected to calorifier which would supply hot water for general use and also connected to a closed loop to recirculate the hot water throughout the underfloor heating system. Sounds kinda simple... but is it?

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No.

Have you considered the power requirement to circulate the hot water?  I doubt a cheapy 12v pump will cut the mustard, and whatever you need is likely to be on 24/7 in a cold spell.

Beyond that, how are you going to prevent  the system mainly heating the cut?  

 

N

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Shirley any heating system will heat the ceiling - 'cos hot air rises.

Otherwise it's an interesting idea. Methinks there are several challenges -

  • Head height through doorways at the sides of the boat
  • Finding a suitable low voltage pump to circulate the water
  • Possible problems with the ebbersplutter 'hunting'
  • Have not heard of it being done beore - possibly because it doesn't work (a bit like Brunel's atmospheric railway)

 

All inventors have been plagued by doubting comments....

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 One of the problems with boats is that its the dark corners and along the edges that tend to suffer from damp and mould, its asking a lot from insulation to go from -10c to + 20c  in a distance of 100mm or so in a dark corner. It might be possible to run a pumped circuit all around the edges. This would leave the floor free to be lifted, sooner or later you will want to get bits of floor up. If you could run that from a proper heat source (my preference is a basic solid fuel stove that will keep you warm when the batteries inevitably go flat.). And run a gravity system with rads. from the same stove that could work.  I don't think the expense and reliance on electricity is worth the bother of underfloor heating.

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3 hours ago, BEngo said:

No.

Have you considered the power requirement to circulate the hot water?  I doubt a cheapy 12v pump will cut the mustard, and whatever you need is likely to be on 24/7 in a cold spell.

Beyond that, how are you going to prevent  the system mainly heating the cut?  

 

N

Forgot to mention the specs... the vessel comes with large-ish battery pack (1000amp) with marine generator on board.

The underfloor heating system would be laid out on top of floorboards throughout the interior (avoiding the blank spots of kitchen units etc...) with regular flooring on top of it.

In order to recirculate the system properly it would have its own expansion tank and a pump.

 

40 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Shirley any heating system will heat the ceiling - 'cos hot air rises.

Otherwise it's an interesting idea. Methinks there are several challenges -

  • Head height through doorways at the sides of the boat
  • Finding a suitable low voltage pump to circulate the water
  • Possible problems with the ebbersplutter 'hunting'
  • Have not heard of it being done beore - possibly because it doesn't work (a bit like Brunel's atmospheric railway)

 

All inventors have been plagued by doubting comments....

As hot air is much lighter than the cold one this was the main reason for doing this as underfloor heating is the best way to keep everything on the body level rather than above it.

Seen on some videos where instead of ballast the owners poured screed all over and laid out their underfloor heating system- as in traditional way of doing this. Frankly, it seems rather risky going this route, as perhaps at some point (for whatever reasons) one may wish to gain access to their hull... albeit not sure why would that be the case if everything works well.

What would be the best way to "hunt" for this ebbersplutter (assuming its meant to be "Ebberspacher"...)?

Head height to the sides definitely is a concern as those 2-2.5cm definitely would make a difference.

Edited by Batainte
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10 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Forgot to mention the specs... the vessel comes with large-ish battery pack (1000amp) with marine generator on board.

The underfloor heating system would be laid out on top of floorboards throughout the interior (avoiding the blank spots of kitchen units etc...) with regular flooring on top of it.

In order to recirculate the system properly it would have its own expansion tank and a pump.

 

As hot air is much lighter than the cold one this was the main reason for doing this as underfloor heating is the best way to keep everything on the body level rather than above it.

Seen on some videos where instead of ballast the owners poured screed all over and laid out their underfloor heating system- as in traditional way of doing this. Frankly, it seems rather risky going this route, as perhaps at some point (for whatever reasons) one may wish to gain access to their hull... albeit not sure why would that be the case if everything works well.

What would be the best way to "hunt" for this ebbersplutter (assuming its meant to be "Ebberspacher"...)?

Head height to the sides definitely is a concern as those 2-2.5cm definitely would make a difference.

Well, shiver me timbers at last sommebody with a decent sized  battery capacity (I have that much capacity - well 500 Ah @ 24v), but no underfloor heating...

 

'Hunting' means not the unspeakable chasing the uneatable (happy days) but the problem when the service (whatever it is) demands a resource (hot water here) for a short time ( let's say for 10 minutes or less) - thus tehe source switched on and off relatively quickly. This is DEATH to an Eberspacher type of heater which was originally designed to supply hot air (fairly) continuously. Over the years, there have many reports / incidents on all sorts of vessels, earning the principal manufacturer tag line of '****splutter... 'cos that's what they do just before they fail...  

 

One of the mitigating advantages of a domestic radiator system on a boat is that they act as a heat sink which will still churn out some heat while the boiler is resting because it has reached either its design temperature or the cabin / house's thermostat has reached its setting temperature.

 

This form has hihertoo been for folks who spend a lot of their time navigating around the system and to whom any idea of luxurious comfort is complete anathema and must be resisted at all costs...

 

However times-they-are-a-changing and (us) old crusties must adapt.

 

Contrarywise as with most things the KISS principle is quite important - go too far with inovation and matters will end in tears - or perhaps become the new normal....

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Forgot to mention the specs... the vessel comes with large-ish battery pack (1000amp) with marine generator on board.

The underfloor heating system would be laid out on top of floorboards throughout the interior (avoiding the blank spots of kitchen units etc...) with regular flooring on top of it.

In order to recirculate the system properly it would have its own expansion tank and a pump.

 

As hot air is much lighter than the cold one this was the main reason for doing this as underfloor heating is the best way to keep everything on the body level rather than above it.

Seen on some videos where instead of ballast the owners poured screed all over and laid out their underfloor heating system- as in traditional way of doing this. Frankly, it seems rather risky going this route, as perhaps at some point (for whatever reasons) one may wish to gain access to their hull... albeit not sure why would that be the case if everything works well.

What would be the best way to "hunt" for this ebbersplutter (assuming its meant to be "Ebberspacher"...)?

Head height to the sides definitely is a concern as those 2-2.5cm definitely would make a difference.

If you put the coolant from the marine generator and your engine you would help warm the floor and give your diesel heaters an easier time.  I met a couple that had done just that years ago mid winter and their boat was toasty

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Being a monster widebeam with unlimited space, the way to make this work would be to have the ebersplutter thing heating up a thermal store, and the thermal store supplying the underfloor heating. 

 

 

Pretty much what I have except I kept the radiators, what it allows is multiple ways of heating the thermal store  ie engine, generator and eibersplutter. 

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17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Don't underfloor heating normally run at a lower water temperature than radiators 

 

Yes, they have a thermostatic blender valve to control pipe temp down to about 40c IIRC.

 

Heat load on the Ebersplutter is highly likely to be less than its rated output, hence the need for some sort of thermal mass (e.g. a thermal store) to load it properly when running and stop it short-cycling. 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/03/2020 at 15:37, Batainte said:

Looking for an alternative point of view on this matter from anyone who may have any comments, opinion, criticism or feedback.

Its a 70x12 with full ballast and flooring already in place, the idea is to get rid of radiators "heating" the ceiling of interior and instead install underfloor heating (using low profile system of roughly 2-2.5cm thickness) for a comfy warm internal climate throughout the year. The system would be installed on top of plywood flooring (unlike using screed in place of ballast itself). Not the tallest boaters so the loss in height wouldnt impact us as much as our taller guests visiting for a weekend on the cut.

 

The concept is to use webasto diesel heater connected to calorifier which would supply hot water for general use and also connected to a closed loop to recirculate the hot water throughout the underfloor heating system. Sounds kinda simple... but is it?

I'm also looking to do the same but with a PJ boiler as these are better designed for 24/7 use.  You'll only get around 100watt max per sq meter which may not be enough to keep your boat warm in the depths of winter so having another heat outlet is recommended.   If you don't like radiators then what about heater air matrices as well?

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On 13/03/2020 at 09:01, peterboat said:

or the bubble boiler from Harworth heating?

I use the Harworth boiler.

An excellent bit of kit and totally user serviceable.

Yes, it is 240v but with care and sensible battery management I have had no problems.

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1 minute ago, Captain Fizz said:

I use the Harworth boiler.

An excellent bit of kit and totally user serviceable.

Yes, it is 240v but with care and sensible battery management I have had no problems.

Apart from the Hurricane I don't think there is any other 12v PJ boilers.   Reading on other forums the Hurricane is not as recommended.

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On 12/03/2020 at 19:05, David Mack said:

Had a look through these posts, nice setup. Is this your system or someone else's whom you found online? If so, what is the heating system that keeps the whole thing going (storing, maintaining and running your hot water + underfloor heating)- is it the Rayburn? Could you share any advice, knowledge or perhaps have suggestions on how not to do things?

 

On 12/03/2020 at 19:22, OldGoat said:

Well, shiver me timbers at last sommebody with a decent sized  battery capacity (I have that much capacity - well 500 Ah @ 24v), but no underfloor heating...

 

'Hunting' means not the unspeakable chasing the uneatable (happy days) but the problem when the service (whatever it is) demands a resource (hot water here) for a short time ( let's say for 10 minutes or less) - thus tehe source switched on and off relatively quickly. This is DEATH to an Eberspacher type of heater which was originally designed to supply hot air (fairly) continuously. Over the years, there have many reports / incidents on all sorts of vessels, earning the principal manufacturer tag line of '****splutter... 'cos that's what they do just before they fail...  

 

One of the mitigating advantages of a domestic radiator system on a boat is that they act as a heat sink which will still churn out some heat while the boiler is resting because it has reached either its design temperature or the cabin / house's thermostat has reached its setting temperature.

 

This form has hihertoo been for folks who spend a lot of their time navigating around the system and to whom any idea of luxurious comfort is complete anathema and must be resisted at all costs...

 

However times-they-are-a-changing and (us) old crusties must adapt.

 

Contrarywise as with most things the KISS principle is quite important - go too far with inovation and matters will end in tears - or perhaps become the new normal....

 

 

Couldn't explain this even better- agree with the fact that going hi-tech is equivalent to hi-maintenance (hi-amount-of-issues) and relying on such techy components can certainly end up in hi-costs down the line. With current e-obsession of having anything that has as much software in whatever the components are and being constantly "plugged in" (from wifi fridges to remote doorhandles), the future and ease of convenience definitely lies in lo-tech as long as one is prepared to accept certain degree of.... normality. Perhaps all of these devices/ gadgets etc.. are just a generational thing, however certain comforts or "improvements" on older systems (be it heating, engines, insulation...) offering "potentially" more clever solutions do come in handy, but surely tried and tested is far more reliable than new and heavily-marketed devices.

So definitely on the both sides of the fence on this matter- best option would be to marry both lo-tech and hi-tech in a healthy bond and observe their outcome in coming future.

 

On 12/03/2020 at 19:38, peterboat said:

If you put the coolant from the marine generator and your engine you would help warm the floor and give your diesel heaters an easier time.  I met a couple that had done just that years ago mid winter and their boat was toasty

Perhaps a bit confused about this- do you mean to add the coolant to the underfloor heating closed loop?

 

On 13/03/2020 at 01:39, Mike the Boilerman said:

Being a monster widebeam with unlimited space, the way to make this work would be to have the ebersplutter thing heating up a thermal store, and the thermal store supplying the underfloor heating. 

 

 

Correct, the intended  system would be as follows:

water tank > pump + expansion tank > webasto water heater > calorifier (thermal storage) > extra expansion tank/ water pump??? > hot water + closed loop for underfloor heating (3 way valve with computer for automated flow)

On 13/03/2020 at 08:02, peterboat said:

Pretty much what I have except I kept the radiators, what it allows is multiple ways of heating the thermal store  ie engine, generator and eibersplutter. 

Would the above mentioned systems be what you use on yours? Did you need to have two expansion tanks or two water pumps to maintain the pressure (one from water tank + another from thermal store) for the whole system? This is a mystery which is still being worked out...

 

 

On 13/03/2020 at 08:57, PaulD said:

Might be worth looking at a Hurricane boiler instead of the Webasto. Higher heat output, more reliable and user serviceable.

 

On 13/03/2020 at 09:01, peterboat said:

or the bubble boiler from Harworth heating?

 

On 14/03/2020 at 09:44, Captain Fizz said:

I use the Harworth boiler.

An excellent bit of kit and totally user serviceable.

Yes, it is 240v but with care and sensible battery management I have had no problems.

 

On 14/03/2020 at 09:47, Robbo said:

Apart from the Hurricane I don't think there is any other 12v PJ boilers.   Reading on other forums the Hurricane is not as recommended.

Thanks, will look into these and take into consideration different opinions about Hurricane... Initially went for webasto (or eberspracher) as they seem to be the ones most heavily marketed so far and others talking about this.

 

On 13/03/2020 at 13:36, ditchcrawler said:

Don't underfloor heating normally run at a lower water temperature than radiators 

Wouldn't know the exact numbers or coefficients on this, but in theory for onshore houses it doest have a more balanced heat output as well as lower energy consumption when compared radiator heating (would knot how this works on boat though).

 

On 14/03/2020 at 09:26, Robbo said:

I'm also looking to do the same but with a PJ boiler as these are better designed for 24/7 use.  You'll only get around 100watt max per sq meter which may not be enough to keep your boat warm in the depths of winter so having another heat outlet is recommended.   If you don't like radiators then what about heater air matrices as well?

Definitely, was thinking to add the log burner to the whole system, but was advised against as it would mean that water would be boiled continuously even when the system wouldn't be used and therefore would require pressure stabilisation in order to not cause unnecessary stress on the whole pipework. Although surely there should be some way of controlling this, perhaps anyone knows about such options?

Perhaps AGA or Rayburn stoves also could be used for maintaining the heat in calorifier?

As an addition to this system was considering to install Webasto hot air blowers in the most vital parts of the interior for instant heating purposes.

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29 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Had a look through these posts, nice setup. Is this your system or someone else's whom you found online?

Not mine. Just a blog I chanced upon and dip into from time to time. The answers to your other questions are proboably somewhere in the blog.

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53 minutes ago, Batainte said:

water tank > pump + expansion tank > webasto water heater > calorifier (thermal storage) > extra expansion tank/ water pump??? > hot water + closed loop for underfloor heating (3 way valve with computer for automated flow)

 

You really do need to consider the electrical power for this. Maybe you have and I haven't noticed. A 100w pump to circulate the underfloor heating water is gonna require a shoreline or some serious generating capacity on board if CCing and mooring up for stretches of days on end.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You really do need to consider the electrical power for this. Maybe you have and I haven't noticed. A 100w pump to circulate the underfloor heating water is gonna require a shoreline or some serious generating capacity on board if CCing and mooring up for stretches of days on end.

 

 

And that is regardless of how big your battery bank is, what you take out you have to put back and a bit more

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My two pennies worth. I`ve underfloor heating in my house and the one thing you should be aware of is they can be likened to storage heaters. It is absolutely imperative that the pipework is laid on thick insulation to ensure the heat is radiated upwards only and not into the bilge. The other and equally important is to realize that you have to have the heat on before you need it due to the time lag between it coming on and creating a warm area. I have a system with an outside sensor which as the temperature drops then the boiler comes on. At present that`s around16.00 hrs. and the rooms are then comfortable (each room has its own wireless thermostatic control) by around 18.00hrs.  My recommendation don`t waste your money and effort. With my narrow boat (57 foot) the Webasto with 4 rads and a towel rad is like toast even around freezing within 3/4s to an hour  from cold after being empty for maybe a month..

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2 minutes ago, jddevel said:

My two pennies worth. I`ve underfloor heating in my house and the one thing you should be aware of is they can be likened to storage heaters. It is absolutely imperative that the pipework is laid on thick insulation to ensure the heat is radiated upwards only and not into the bilge. The other and equally important is to realize that you have to have the heat on before you need it due to the time lag between it coming on and creating a warm area. I have a system with an outside sensor which as the temperature drops then the boiler comes on. At present that`s around16.00 hrs. and the rooms are then comfortable (each room has its own wireless thermostatic control) by around 18.00hrs.  My recommendation don`t waste your money and effort. With my narrow boat (57 foot) the Webasto with 4 rads and a towel rad is like toast even around freezing within 3/4s to an hour  from cold after being empty for maybe a month..

 

Sadly I think the OP knows better and seems determined to re-invent the wheel.

 

I was the same when I bought my first narrowboat. Thought I had so much new thinking to bring to the table, but no, you lot actually knew better, I discovered!

 

 

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20 minutes ago, jddevel said:

It is absolutely imperative that the pipework is laid on thick insulation to ensure the heat is radiated upwards only and not into the bilge.

 

This absolutely. And with domestic ground floor underfloor heating the pipe is typically laid in a concrete screed (over insulation) which acts as a heat store and radiator. For suspended timber floors you can get aluminium or steel spreader plates which act like radiators, incrasing the surface area able to radiate the heat. I reckon someting like this would help to make the most of underfloor heating on a boat.

 

For example https://www.underfloorshop.co.uk/product/underfloor-shop-aluminium-spreader-plates-pack-of-50/?gclid=CjwKCAjwsMzzBRACEiwAx4lLGyOy1yXU6UKA9hzoFphVqU21HYNhLRCa2BmawWsi1t__E7QGJ7kEWRoCdBUQAvD_BwE

Underfloor-Heating-Aluminium-Spreader-PlUnderfloor-Shop-Aluminium-Spreader-Plate

Edited by David Mack
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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

This absolutely. And with domestic ground floor underfloor heating the pipe is typically laid in a concrete screed (over insulation) which acts as a heat store and radiator. For susoended timber floors you can get aluminium or steel spreader plates which act like radiators, incrasing the surface area able to radiate the heat. I reckon someting like this woudl help to make the most of underfloor heating on a boat.

 

For example https://www.underfloorshop.co.uk/product/underfloor-shop-aluminium-spreader-plates-pack-of-50/?gclid=CjwKCAjwsMzzBRACEiwAx4lLGyOy1yXU6UKA9hzoFphVqU21HYNhLRCa2BmawWsi1t__E7QGJ7kEWRoCdBUQAvD_BwE

 

And the power to pump the hot water through????

 

Underfloor heating on a boat is totally impractical unless on a permanent shoreline or with a £15k cocooned genny. 

 

 

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