Jump to content

Red Diesel Budget changes 2020


TheBiscuits

Featured Posts

8 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

Good spot.

 

That pretty much says that they have decided everything but how (or if!) to allow rebates on white diesel used for domestic heating.

 

Any marine fuel sales to propel private pleasure boats must be white diesel.  Marinas will have the ongoing benefit of not having to report percentage splits of red diesel to HMRC and if they only sell white will not have to be RDCOs, which nearly all inland waterways marinas will choose to do.

 

Red diesel domestic use will still be allowed if there are two separate tanks/fuel systems on the boat and you can't "accidentally" burn the red in the engine.  

 

The penalties for using red in boat propulsion will be increased significantly, bringing them inline with those for using red in a car/van.

 

What are the penalties for using red diesel illegally?

Vehicles found to be using rebated fuel illegally may be seized by the authorities. The vehicle’s owner will then have to pay a fee for the vehicle’s release, which would include a penalty for the offences (up to a £250 fine for each offence), along with an amount to cover the duty owed.  Serious offences may result in the issue of an unlimited fine to the operator and a prison sentence of up to two years.

 

It does seem like a lot of faff for the sake of 46p an hour ...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fortunately I filled up recently so am not unduly worried for the time being.

 

There will no doubt be loads of speculation on this and other forums.  I think I will wait until we actually know what the situation is going to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, dor said:

Fortunately I filled up recently so am not unduly worried for the time being.

 

There will no doubt be loads of speculation on this and other forums.  I think I will wait until we actually know what the situation is going to be.

I though this was going to come in in 2022, will your tank full last until then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I though this was going to come in in 2022, will your tank full last until then.

It has to happen this year, while the UK is in the Brexit transition period, or we will have to pay fines considerably in excess of the duty differences to the EU.  It was all fobbed off last year and the year before as HMRC never cared about it in the scale of things, but Belgium made a huge fuss about us and Ireland not clamping down on boats using cheap diesel. 

 

Of course if HMRC just says "Everyone shut up and only put white diesel in your boats!" then the government don't have to pay the fines, but will be seen as caving in to EU demands.  It could well end up being another stupid political football in the trade negotiations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I predict you will still be able to do so - but you will be paying full rate duty on the diesel for it.

 

I can also foresee that boats that don't have diesel powered heating installed won't be able to claim a penny, so you will need to have either a bubble/refleks stove or a webasto/eberspacher/mikuni heater installed to claim anything.

 

I have both a Kabola Old Dutch drip feed stove and a Webasto. The Kabola is fed from a dedicated 60 litre tank, and the Webasto is fed from the engine tank, so may need to be replumbed. Fortunately this is a relatively easy job as there is a pump and pipework to allow the front tank to be filled from the engine tank if required.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't see how your tank would be clean of traces of dye unless you have it cleaned as you will be able to add more red until the day its no longer allowed

 

In theory. But after that day it is no longer allowed it would be illegal to propel the boat on red fuel.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Or, is it only illegal to sell it ?

 

This new legislation on coal and wet-wood, only makes it illegal to sell it, it is not illegal to use it.

With cars it to use it regardless where you get it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Or, is it only illegal to sell it ?

 

This new legislation on coal and wet-wood, only makes it illegal to sell it, it is not illegal to use it.

Use it.  See the linked document that discusses bringing the penalties in line with using red in a car - seizure of the vehicle, £250 fine per occurrence, have to pay the extra duty + penalties and in very severe cases unlimited fines and/or jail time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Try driving your car on red and use that argument if you get dipped ;)

I know it wouldn't 'fly' with a car, because a car has never been allowed to use 'Red', whereas a boat has - so if a boat has (say) 1000 litres of Red in its tank the day before 'change-over' day surely there will be some allowance for carry-forward as long as any future receipts can be shown to be for 'white'

 

Taking your boat to France and they accept you will be arriving with Red in your tanks but if you follow the guidance then its all OK

 

 

The Customs Attaché of the French Embassy in London has confirmed that:

1. If the owner is a British resident and the vessel is in French waters on a temporary basis (holiday), the vessel may arrive in France with red diesel in its tank, refuel with correctly taxed diesel during its stay in France and return to Great Britain without a problem.  

2. If the vessel is to remain in France for an extended stay, invoices for diesel purchases should be retained for three years to demonstrate that duty paid fuel has been purchased since the boat’s arrival in France. Your fuel invoices, should be kept on board to demonstrate you have acted in good faith, should your boat’s fuel be subject to inspection.  

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Use it.  See the linked document that discusses bringing the penalties in line with using red in a car - seizure of the vehicle, £250 fine per occurrence, have to pay the extra duty + penalties and in very severe cases unlimited fines and/or jail time.

See above.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Or, is it only illegal to sell it ?

I am not a lawyer but would say it will be illegal to use it for propulsion. Which amounts to being illegal having it in the tank feeding the engine.

Possessing red diesel will not be illegal.

I am guessing............

Marinas will start to take white diesel deliveries at the next delivery
It will stain from the remaining red in the marina tank
We well be no wiser until after several deliveries the fuel in the marina tank becomes white - could take  a year or so.
In the meantime the 60/40 split carries on but no other declaration permitted.

Therefore no change except for those wanting fuel at 100% domestic rate will be declined.

 

At ports that are mainly for fishing and windfarm vessels I expect white diesel may not be available . That's a concern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Wharrabout the proportion of  fuel that's "used" to heat your hot water (yes, it is a by-product of propelling the boat, but it still provides useful heat for other purposes). I think that was taken into account in the existing scheme when HMRC consulted the RYA and any boater that cared to make a submission. There are folks in Government departments who will listen if they are empowered so to do.

 

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

That was the exact scheme that was ruled illegal, hence todays' weasel wording in the budget.

 

No. What was illegal was having red diesel in tanks supplying propulsion engines. The new scheme aims to keep the split duty cost to the user, but by doing it with white diesel, EU requirements are satisfied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The small print that everyone is ignoring:

 

Red diesel: Prohibition of use for propelling private pleasure craft – Private pleasure craft already pay the standard white diesel rate for propulsion. They will still be entitled to use red diesel for their heating use. Where they have one tank for propulsion and heating, the government will explore options that prevent them from having to pay a higher rate of duty on their heating use than they would otherwise have to pay. Details on the implementation of this power will be set out in due course.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2020-documents/budget-2020#budget-policy-decisions

I can see the only real solution is a separate tank for your diesel heater/stove. If it meant being able to use red diesel for heating (which we use at 100% as we are on a static mooring and not moving at present), I would fit another plastic tank. Using white diesel to heat your boat all winter would cost a fair bit more (about 40%?) Interestingly enough, camper vans fitted with diesel heaters use white road diesel and I haven’t heard anyone complain (yet)

Edited by Rob99fla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rob99fla said:

I can see the only real solution is a separate tank for your diesel heater/stove. If it meant being able to use red diesel for heating (which we use at 100% as we are on a static mooring and not moving at present), I would fit another plastic tank. Using white diesel to heat your boat all winter would cost a fair bit more (about 40%?) Interestingly enough, camper vans fitted with diesel heaters use white road diesel and I haven’t heard anyone complain (yet)

Camper vans (in the main) have for years used white diesel, and can have a separate tank for red for heating.  So for them nothing changes.  Until recently boats used red for everything and so were built with a single tank.  HMRC accept that many people live on their boats and it is government policy to not charge high rates of VAT and duty on domestic heating.  HMRC also accept that for many existing narrowboats fitting an additional tank is not reasonable (space, cost etc), so have undertaken to come up with a scheme to allow these boats to continue to be able to heat their boats with ‘lower cost’ fuel.  They recently did a consultation about this, so probably they will not do another.  Interesting to see what they come up with.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, john6767 said:

I though this was going to come in in 2022, will your tank full last until then.

Correct. It says April 2022 to allow industry to adapt. As far as I have read, red diesel accounts for 15% of total diesel use. I imagine boats make up a tiny proportion of this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Camper vans (in the main) have for years used white diesel, and can have a separate tank for red for heating.  So for them nothing changes.  Until recently boats used red for everything and so were built with a single tank.  HMRC accept that many people live on their boats and it is government policy to not charge high rates of VAT and duty on domestic heating.  HMRC also accept that for many existing narrowboats fitting an additional tank is not reasonable (space, cost etc), so have undertaken to come up with a scheme to allow these boats to continue to be able to heat their boats with ‘lower cost’ fuel.  They recently did a consultation about this, so probably they will not do another.  Interesting to see what they come up with.  

Agree with all of that. As I mentioned in another reply, boats make up a tiny proportion of the total 15% red diesel use. It might just be a simple fixed 60/40 as some suppliers do anyway. Anyway, it’s not until April 2022. It’s aimed at the construction industry which will lose between £280m and £490m a year (Civil Engineering contractors association figures)

Edited by Rob99fla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Liability gets tricky. As with drink-driving, its easy to identify who is behind the wheel but with a boat, who would be committing the offence at the point of dipping/testing? The CRT registered owner? One of the several crew swapping around steering duties, none of whom is at the tiller when the customs bods rock up with their dip rods?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Midnight said:

Sounds to me like very little or no change. I doubt they will set up a claw-back scheme seems an expensive option for just a relatively few boaters. 

The ECJ has instructed the UK that our present system for boats is unlawful.  Our government has consulted on the issue and now appears to be treading water until 31.12.20 when it can give two fingers to the ECJ and we carry on as we do know.

 

HOWEVER, any thoughts of reversion to full use of red prices are now completely gone as boaters will no longer be singled out for special treatment among off road propulsion users.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Liability gets tricky. As with drink-driving, its easy to identify who is behind the wheel but with a boat, who would be committing the offence at the point of dipping/testing? The CRT registered owner? One of the several crew swapping around steering duties, none of whom is at the tiller when the customs bods rock up with their dip rods?

Yes, the registered owner I would have thought. Just the same as a car’s registered keeper would be responsible. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes, the registered owner I would have thought. Just the same as a car’s registered keeper would be responsible. 


And if the boat is jointly owned by a couple, a syndicate or a company?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And if the boat is jointly owned by a couple, a syndicate or a company?

If that’s what’s on CRT’s records then that’s who’s responsible. If one or more persons then the law allows for jointly and severally aiui. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Camper vans (in the main) have for years used white diesel,

Campervans are a smaller space to heat, so cost is less of an issue than for narrow boats. And campervans presumably generally fill up at roadside petrol stations where only white is available.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/03/2020 at 14:36, Nightwatch said:

How long does the dye stay evident in the tank?

The main place that the dye remains is in the fuek filter so after a few top up's and by using red down to almost empty a few times then change your filter should be good to go. After running down till near empty filter should be changed anyway as empty is when it picks all the crap in the bottom.

Older engines like ours that have a machincal pump can be tuned to run on veg oil, so just down to tesco's. I knew a guy a few years back did that with is car old chip shop oil (filtered) and or cooking oil from tesco's. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.