Red Diesel Budget changes 2020

[TheBiscuits]

The small print that everyone is ignoring:

 

Red diesel: Prohibition of use for propelling private pleasure craft – Private pleasure craft already pay the standard white diesel rate for propulsion. They will still be entitled to use red diesel for their heating use. Where they have one tank for propulsion and heating, the government will explore options that prevent them from having to pay a higher rate of duty on their heating use than they would otherwise have to pay. Details on the implementation of this power will be set out in due course.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2020-documents/budget-2020#budget-policy-decisions

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks for that, the devil is always in the detail

[pearley]

But no mention of those that generate power via a diesel generator.

[David Mack]

So it looks like boats with a single tank will still be able to pay duty only on the proportion of fuel used for propulsion (even if the mechanism for doing this changes). 

So two fingers up to Europe then!

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, David Mack said:

So it looks like boats with a single tank will still be able to pay duty only on the proportion of fuel used for propulsion (even if the mechanism for doing this changes). 

So two fingers up to Europe then!

Or an allowable rebate on white diesel ...

 

1 minute ago, pearley said:

But no mention of those that generate power via a diesel generator.

That may not be an oversight.  As they are going to scrap the red diesel rebate for commercial generators and refrigeration units they might be explicitly be ruling out electrical generation on private pleasure craft - solar is cheap these days ... shame it doesn't work in January!

[john6767]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Or an allowable rebate on white diesel ...

 

That may not be an oversight.  As they are going to scrap the red diesel rebate for commercial generators and refrigeration units they might be explicitly be ruling out electrical generation on private pleasure craft - solar is cheap these days ... shame it doesn't work in January!

So in reality the only rebate available may be for diesel stoves and central heating, and the use of the boat engine to generate domestic electricity and hot water would not be entitled to a rebate.  Will be interesting to see how this works, I wonder if it will be white diesel and where as appropriate you can claim a rebate back some how.

[Nightwatch]

How long does the dye stay evident in the tank?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Nightwatch

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, john6767 said:

So in reality the only rebate available may be for diesel stoves and central heating, and the use of the boat engine to generate domestic electricity and hot water would not be entitled to a rebate.  Will be interesting to see how this works, I wonder if it will be white diesel and where as appropriate you can claim a rebate back some how.

Well no, hot water surely comes under “heating”. But agree about electricity.

[john6767]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Well no, hot water surely comes under “heating”. But agree about electricity.

The hot water one has always been a bit dubious given it is really just a by product of running the engine for other purposes.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

How long does the dye stay evident in the tank?

I think HMRC will have bigger fish to fry

Someone once posted how much red diesel is being used in what is effectively dirty plant in London, can't remember where

[jake_crew]

Over 3 million tonnes of rock have been excavated for Crossrail in London.  It takes 10 tons of diesel to power the hydraulic units to mine a ton of rock.  So thats 30 million tons of diesel so far.

 

Then there's the transport of machinery and material in and out as well as removing the spoil.

 

At least the spoil is being used productively ;-

 

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/tunnelling/excavated-material

[Midnight]

Sounds to me like very little or no change. I doubt they will set up a claw-back scheme seems an expensive option for just a relatively few boaters. 

[David Mack]

My guess is that only agriculture, trains, fishing boats (and perhaps ferries and other commercial boats) and domestic heating will be allowed to use red diesel. The rest of us - leisure craft, construction equipment etc. will have to use white. That makes enforcement fairly easy. And we will probably be expected to have removed most traces of red from our tanks by the time the new rules come in in 2 years time. As an exception, leisure boats with a single fuel tank, will not have to pay the duty on the proportion of fuel used for heating. But whether that is by the current system of making a split declaration at the time of purchase, and only paying duty on the propulsion proportion, or perhaps paying in full and then claiming a refund on the heating proportion, remains to be seen.

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, David Mack said:

My guess is that only agriculture, trains, fishing boats (and perhaps ferries and other commercial boats) and domestic heating will be allowed to use red diesel. The rest of us - leisure craft, construction equipment etc. will have to use white. That makes enforcement fairly easy. And we will probably be expected to have removed most traces of red from our tanks by the time the new rules come in in 2 years time. As an exception, leisure boats with a single fuel tank, will not have to pay the duty on the proportion of fuel used for heating. But whether that is by the current system of making a split declaration at the time of purchase, and only paying duty on the propulsion proportion, or perhaps paying in full and then claiming a refund on the heating proportion, remains to be seen.

I don't see how your tank would be clean of traces of dye unless you have it cleaned as you will be able to add more red until the day its no longer allowed

 

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, David Mack said:

My guess is that only agriculture, trains, fishing boats (and perhaps ferries and other commercial boats) and domestic heating will be allowed to use red diesel. The rest of us - leisure craft, construction equipment etc. will have to use white. That makes enforcement fairly easy. And we will probably be expected to have removed most traces of red from our tanks by the time the new rules come in in 2 years time. As an exception, leisure boats with a single fuel tank, will not have to pay the duty on the proportion of fuel used for heating. But whether that is by the current system of making a split declaration at the time of purchase, and only paying duty on the propulsion proportion, or perhaps paying in full and then claiming a refund on the heating proportion, remains to be seen.

 

And claiming a refund will no doubt only be possible if you have a land-based address complete with postcode....

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't see how your tank would be clean of traces of dye unless you have it cleaned as you will be able to add more red until the day its no longer allowed

 

And on that day they could change the approved marker red dye to blue or green ... so any traces of red will be meaningless ..

[OldGoat]

27 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

And on that day they could change the approved marker red dye to blue or green ... so any traces of red will be meaningless ..

It's not the dye that counts - there's a more complex tracer that's used which is invisibule.

Being a practical person and given that the amount of diesel fuel used is tiny compared to other uses, methinks the current scheme will remain in force. Most canal side supplies are very insecure, thus MGO would remain to discourage theft and the existing customer declaration scheme would acknowledge the split.

To my mind its the risk of theft that means MGO should remain. Come to think of it it's the same for farm and small industry supplies. 

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

It's not the dye that counts - there's a more complex tracer that's used which is invisibule.

Yes, but different tracers have different colours added alongside them AIUI. 

 

The trace marker in Irish Green is not the same as the one in UK Red, but the coloured dye is only an easy visual indicator these days - the dipping checks for the marker itself.

[doratheexplorer]

2 hours ago, john6767 said:

The hot water one has always been a bit dubious given it is really just a by product of running the engine for other purposes.

I sometimes run my engine for the sole purpose of heating water.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

I sometimes run my engine for the sole purpose of heating water.

I predict you will still be able to do so - but you will be paying full rate duty on the diesel for it.

 

I can also foresee that boats that don't have diesel powered heating installed won't be able to claim a penny, so you will need to have either a bubble/refleks stove or a webasto/eberspacher/mikuni heater installed to claim anything.

[OldGoat]

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I predict you will still be able to do so - but you will be paying full rate duty on the diesel for it.

 

I can also foresee that boats that don't have diesel powered heating installed won't be able to claim a penny, so you will need to have either a bubble/refleks stove or a webasto/eberspacher/mikuni heater installed to claim anything.

Wharrabout the proportion of  fuel that's "used" to heat your hot water (yes, it is a by-product of propelling the boat, but it still provides useful heat for other purposes). I think that was taken into account in the existing scheme when HMRC consulted the RYA and any boater that cared to make a submission. There are folks in Government departments who will listen if they are empowered so to do.

[JamesFrance]

The final details have not been decided yet but they seem to be on top of it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-changes-for-diesel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft/fuel-duty-changes-for-diesel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft

[Cheshire cat]

And you'll be telling us next that 50% of your diesel is burnt to produce hot water for other purposes. Those fish have got to be kept warm some how.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Wharrabout the proportion of  fuel that's "used" to heat your hot water (yes, it is a by-product of propelling the boat, but it still provides useful heat for other purposes). I think that was taken into account in the existing scheme when HMRC consulted the RYA and any boater that cared to make a submission. There are folks in Government departments who will listen if they are empowered so to do.

That was the exact scheme that was ruled illegal, hence todays' weasel wording in the budget.

 

the government will explore options [...] Details  [...] will be set out in due course.

 

 

 

 

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, jake_crew said:

Over 3 million tonnes of rock have been excavated for Crossrail in London.  It takes 10 tons of diesel to power the hydraulic units to mine a ton of rock.  So thats 30 million tons of diesel so far.

 

 

Something wrong with this, I feel.  At (say) 40p per litre it would cost £14.4bn for the diesel alone; Crossrail is estimated to cost  (only) £18bn.

 

Put another way, a  builder's skip size pile of rubble would cost close to £40k in diesel.  At 2 litres an hour, a mini digger/breaker would be be working for 25 years (40 hour week) to fill the skip. which seems a bit slow