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First year with a composting toilet


frahkn

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14 hours ago, peterboat said:

Bob she has a real problem with composting loos! 

No, I have a problem with people puting human faeces in to landfill via domestic type bins when tbere is a simple system of disposal which slways ends up with an inert, disease free product.

I have a problem with people who don't know anything about 'composting' buying a plastic bucket,  putting their faeces in a plastic bag, and thinking that is 'green'. It's a disgusting and illegal method of disposal. As for 'boat gardening',  ong.

14 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

If you look at the link that Redwing posted it contains an article from the CRT with their advice on composting toilet waste.

 

That specifically says

 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed at an Elsan/sanitary station. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to pilot a facility for solid waste from composting loos as part of the London Mooring Strategy but in the meantime liquids go into the Elsan unit and solids should be bagged in a nappy bag and placed in the domestic waste bins. Please don’t dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water, knowing that it hasn’t composted properly. 

 

Lady G, please will you stop saying it is illegal to put desicated waste from a compost toilet in the bin. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

It is hazardous waste, and it is illegal to put hazardous waste in to the domestic landfill system.

I don't know where CRT gets the idea that users can stick faeces into Biffa Bins. They need to read their contract.

As for using one nappy bag to dispose of the contents of a shit bucket, well that's just ridiculous.

Edited by LadyG
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4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Sorry I didn't interpret hygiene waste as bags full of solid excreta.   Nappies and incontinence pads I can understand but I didn't think Hygiene waste menat large quantities of human waste.

 

I assumed hygiene waste was such things as wet wipes, cotton buds etc.

 

I was assuming it would come under anatomical waste and couldn't make it into anything other than hazardous as faeces are undoubtedly infectious e.g. Covid 19 has been found in faeces.

I accept your apology.

Soiled nappies and incontinence pads contain horrible smelly human waste and I detest being anywhere near it or smelling it. That waste is non-hazardous according to the government. There is a limit of 7Kg weight that you are allowed to dispose of in black bag waste.

The solid waste that comes out of a well designed composting toilet is desicated, not smelly and are not being broken down by all the enzymes that are present when wee and poo are mixed. The design of our toilet is that the solids will be emptied every 4 to 5 days. Weight of the amount is far less than 5Kg - very little water. That makes it possible to double bag it in biodegradable bags and bin it. We will normally compost ours.

 

 

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It is hazardous waste, and it is illegal to put hazardous waste in to the domestic landfill system.

 

It is not classed as hazardous by the government. The Government make the rules.

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9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, I have a problem with people puting human faeces in to landfill via domestic type bins when tbere is a simple system of disposal which slways ends up with an inert, disease free product.

I have a problem with people who don't know anything about 'composting' buying a plastic bucket,  putting their faeces in a plastic bag, and thinking that is 'green'. It's a disgusting and illegal method of disposal. As for 'boat gardening',  ong.

It is hazardous waste, and it is illegal to put hazardous waste in to the domestic landfill system.

I don't know where CRT gets the idea that users can stick faeces into Biffa Bins. They need to read the contract.

Once again, it is not hazardous waste. Further information.. https://www.principalhygiene.co.uk/clinical-waste-faq   This the very last time I will research something you clearly prefer to ignore.   You are on your own with your sh1t stirring. 

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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

I accept your apology.

Soiled nappies and incontinence pads contain horrible smelly human waste and I detest being anywhere near it or smelling it. That waste is non-hazardous according to the government. There is a limit of 7Kg weight that you are allowed to dispose of in black bag waste.

The solid waste that comes out of a well designed composting toilet is desicated, not smelly and are not being broken down by all the enzymes that are present when wee and poo are mixed. The design of our toilet is that the solids will be emptied every 4 to 5 days. Weight of the amount is far less than 5Kg - very little water. That makes it possible to double bag it in biodegradable bags and bin it. We will normally compost ours.

 

 

Mine goes months, I do add veg matter into it now to reduce that time. I used to add coconut grindings to it, but I have had a lot sawdust recently so that's been going into it. Before me me composting it my mate John used use it with great success, and that was over many years 

2 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Once again, it is not hazardous waste. Further information.. https://www.principalhygiene.co.uk/clinical-waste-faq   This the very last time I will research something you clearly prefer to ignore.   You are on your own with your sh1t stirring. 

I think she must have shares in a sewage company 

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35 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The tank was pumped out yearly when the muck spreading happened it was mixed with cow shit and helping feed the land. LG will be along shortly telling me its illegal 

It is now.

We now have to pay £150 per tanker (we need two tankers to empty our tank) as the sludge can no longer be spread on the land, it now has to be taken to a (limited number) of sewage works for treatment and sterilisation before it can be put onto the land.

Previously the local farmer has taken it.

 

We have quite a few sewage works around us, but, NO, they are not approved for the receipt of tanker loads of sewage so he has to go about 20 miles (each way) to empty and return.

 

 

Can a farmer empty my septic tank?

The simple answer is NO, as it is highly unlikely that he complies with the regulations below:

The Farmer MUST be a Registered Waste Carrier

Untreated sewage treatment plant or septic tank waste has been banned from being spread on all agricultural land since 2005.

Farmers now only receive payments under the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) if they achieve and maintainFarmers cannot empty septic tanks certain standards on:
  • environmental and public health
  • animal and plant health
  • animal welfare

These standards are known as 'cross compliance'.

If you supply or spread sludge to agricultural land, you must meet the requirements of the Sludge (Use in Agriculture) Regulations. You must comply with these regulations in order to meet the requirements of the cross compliance rules of the single farm payment scheme

You must only use sewage sludge that has been tested according to the Sludge Regulations. You must check that you do not exceed the limit on the average annual rate of addition of metals in the sludge.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mine goes months, I do add veg matter into it now to reduce that time. I used to add coconut grindings to it, but I have had a lot sawdust recently so that's been going into it. Before me me composting it my mate John used use it with great success, and that was over many years 

I think she must have shares in a sewage company 

PETER WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE AN ALLOTMENT AND COMPOSTING FACILITIES IN YOUR GARDEN AND YOU ARE PREPARED TO FAFF ABOUT FOR THREE YEARS.

The pr

The point is that, as far as we know, you are one in thirty thousand boaters.

For people to think that by buying a different type of bucket to everyone else and calling it a composting toilet. Then putting it in to landfill, and calling it 'green', is totally wrong.

The victoriana stopped people throwing faeces in to the streets because it caused disease.

That system has been steadily improved over the years. Up till recently raw sewage was put in to the rivers,  it still is in times of flood, that does not make it either legal or something to be proud of. 

Edited by LadyG
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6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

PETER WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE AN ALLOTMENT AND COMPOSTING FACILITIES IN YOUR GARDEN AND YOU ARE PREPARED TO FAFF ABOUT FOR THREE YEARS.

The pr

The point is that, as far as we know, you are one in thirty thousand boaters.

For people to think that by buying a different type of bucket to everyone else and calling it a composting toilet. Then putting it in to landfill, and calling it 'green', is totally wrong.

The victoriana stopped people throwing faeces in to the streets because it caused disease.

That system has been steadily improved over the years. Up till recently raw sewage was put in to the rivers,  it still is in times of flood, that does not make it either legal or something to be proud of. 

Plenty of others on here doing the same, they have posted about it, what I am pointing out some boaters have friends with large gardens and allotments which they could utilize saving huge amounts of water and electricity 

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53 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Up till recently raw sewage was put in to the rivers, 

There are many rivers where it is still allowed. 

 

Under "The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016"

 

A discharge of sewage from a boat is allowed.

 

Meaning of “water discharge activity”

 

3.—(1) A “water discharge activity” means any of the following—

 

(a)the discharge or entry to inland freshwaters, coastal waters or relevant territorial waters of any—

 

(i)poisonous, noxious or polluting matter,

 

(ii)waste matter, or

 

(iii)trade effluent or sewage effluent;

 

(b)the discharge from land through a pipe into the sea outside the seaward limits of relevant territorial waters of any trade effluent or sewage effluent;

 

(c)the removal from any part of the bottom, channel or bed of any inland freshwaters of a deposit accumulated by reason of any dam, weir or sluice holding back the waters, by causing it to be carried away in suspension in the waters, unless the activity is carried on in the exercise of a power conferred by or under any enactment relating to land drainage, flood prevention or navigation;

 

(d)the cutting or uprooting of a substantial amount of vegetation in any inland freshwaters or so near to any such waters that it falls into them, where it is not reasonable to take steps to remove the vegetation from these waters;

 

(e)an activity in respect of which a notice under paragraph 4 or 5 has been served and has taken effect.

 

(2) A discharge or an activity that might lead to a discharge is not a “water discharge activity”—

 

(a)if the discharge is made, or authorised to be made, by or under any prescribed statutory provision, or

 

(b)if the discharge is of trade effluent or sewage effluent from a vessel.

 

(3) In determining whether a discharge or an activity is a water discharge activity, no account must be taken of any radioactivity possessed by any substance or article or by any part of any premises.

 

 

 

The only change to this is where there are specific bylelaws forbid it.

 

Some people believe that the Thames is one such river under PLA Bylaw 49,  however if read carefully it does NOT apply to pleasure / leisure boats.

 

PLA Byelaw 49 came into force on 1 January 2015. The Byelaw prevents the discharge of sewage into the Thames from specified vessels, consistent with the continuing improvement of the Thames environment, particularly with Thames Water's project to stop the discharge of untreated sewage into the river, and brings the Thames into line with a number of other UK harbours and inland waterways.

For the purposes of this byelaw, sewage refers to faeces and urine plus any water associated with them. In some circumstances, sewage from vessels is known as "black water".

The full text of the Port of London Authority Byelaw 49 is reproduced below:

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

49.1 The owner of:

  1. a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or
  2. a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

 

But it doesn't apply to pleasure boats, or to visiting boats, or to a number of other excluded categories listed in S124.  but does apply to liveaboards.

The byelaw has to mention houseboats explicitly as, when they are moored, they don't need a licence. There may be some houseboats that would need a licence if they moved.

 

 

124.(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vessel shall not be navigated, worked or moored within the vessel licensing area unless—

 

(a)there is in force in relation to it a relevant licence issued by the Port Authority in accordance with byelaws made by the Port Authority; and

 

(b)the name of the vessel and such other particulars as may be prescribed in byelaws made by the Port Authority are displayed on the vessel in the manner prescribed by those byelaws.

 

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to—

 

(a)a vessel which is navigated, worked or moored only occasionally in the vessel licensing area;

 

(b)a pleasure vessel;

 

(c)a hovercraft or seaplane;

 

(d)any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored;

 

 

 

That may not be what either you or C&RT would wish the situation to be, but it is what it is.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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So now it's about saving electricity? 

Where is this coming from? 

Water falls from the skies, and some of it ends up in the water system, I don't use much water at the elsan as I pee in my pooper, so it comes out fairly liquid, loo paper and all. Other countries have different WCs, a

UK WCs can cope with toilet paper, and nowadays most have dual flush. 

I don't think the elsan uses a lot of electricity, though the building I use is heated to stop the water pipes freezing in the integrated WC

Edited by LadyG
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What maybe of interest to those who speculate on such things is the following (also taken from the  2016 Act)

 

 

 

It is interesting that the removal and manual disassembly of Lock gates is listed in The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016 and "is limited to the destruction of 100 tonnes". (I presume per annum)

 

Also of note is :

 

 

Deposit of waste from dredging of inland waters (D1)

 

1.—(1) The deposit of relevant waste arising from the dredging of inland waters and associated screening and dewatering.

 

(2) The table specifying relevant waste for the purposes of this paragraph is set out below.

Codes Waste types
170506 Dredging spoil other than those mentioned in 170505

 

(3) For the purposes of this paragraph, the specific conditions are that—

 

(a)the total quantity of waste deposited or treated over any 12-month period does not exceed 50 cubic metres for each metre of land on which the waste is deposited, and

 

(b)the waste is deposited at the closest possible point to where the waste was produced on—

 

(i)the bank of the inland waters from which the waste was produced, or

 

(ii)such width of land adjoining the inland waters so as to enable the waste to be removed and deposited by mechanical means in one operation.

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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

So now it's about saving electricity? 

Where is this coming from? 

Water falls from the skies, and some of it ends up in the water system, I don't use much water at the elsan as I pee in my pooper, so it comes out fairly liquid, loo paper and all.

I don't think the elsan uses a lot of electricity, though the building I use is heated. 

You live in a dream world of your own making! The local to Jayne sewage station has its own wind turbine to save money on electric it also collects rainwater from local housing estate) to save money. Sewage takes a lot of energy to treat, you have already been told of the emissions but still don't see the value of composting poo

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3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

If they are so great why do these handful of boaters with them not have one in their house?

We have a Victorian house with no toilet downstairs and have thought, for many years, of installing one. The problem is that though we have a useful space (below the staircase) it is a fair distance to the external waste stack, partly over a solid concrete floor. The faff of a macerator, pump and piping has put us off doing anything so far but we are considering a composting solution now that we have had experience of the one on the boat.

 

Like the boat, this would be a "forced" change rather than an ideological one.

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33 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Plenty of others on here doing the same, they have posted about it, what I am pointing out some boaters have friends with large gardens and allotments which they could utilize saving huge amounts of water and electricity 

How many of them have an allotment and three or more compost bins, and three years regular hadling to ensure the process of composting takes place.

OP does not have an allotment or she would have mentioned it when I asked. She thinks she is doing something for the planet, IMHO, she is wrong to think that putting it in a two heavy duty plastic bags and throwing it in a domestic bin is anything other than pointless. 

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The EA have a policy document on the use of composting toilets. which appears to suggest that you need a permit to use the 'sludge' or the 'liquid' on your land.

 

Extract :

 

Our approach

We recognise that well designed composting toilets can reduce water usage and produce an output which is suitable for use as a fertiliser.

 

Systems which separate the liquid and sanitary wastes from the solids In these systems which can be either permanently sited or portable, a carbon source such as sawdust or wood shavings is added to reduce odour and aid the degradation process.

These toilets are effectively septic tanks and as with the septic tank sludge the resulting treated material can be spread on land as a fertiliser in accordance with the Sludge Use in Agriculture Regulations, the Safe Sludge Matrix and the Code of Good Agricultural Practice (COGAP) or Standard rules permit SR2010No6.

 

The separated liquid fraction can be:

• stored in a sealed tank and collected by a waste contractor for disposal at a STW

• discharged to land as is the case with traditional septic tanks.

 

Where a discharge to land or water is being made an exemption or environmental permit will be required. Further information about exemptions and permits is found on our website.

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2 minutes ago, frahkn said:

We have a Victorian house with no toilet downstairs and have thought, for many years, of installing one. The problem is that though we have a useful space (below the staircase) it is a fair distance to the external waste stack, partly over a solid concrete floor. The faff of a macerator, pump and piping has put us off doing anything so far but we are considering a composting solution now that we have had experience of the one on the boat.

 

Like the boat, this would be a "forced" change rather than an ideological one.

....taking this ever so slightly off topic and into Mrs Browns Boys, the episode with the downstairs loo created in the cupboard under the stairs had a few funny moments...fans will remember which. 

 

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4 minutes ago, frahkn said:

We have a Victorian house with no toilet downstairs and have thought, for many years, of installing one. The problem is that though we have a useful space (below the staircase) it is a fair distance to the external waste stack, partly over a solid concrete floor. The faff of a macerator, pump and piping has put us off doing anything so far but we are considering a composting solution now that we have had experience of the one on the boat.

 

Like the boat, this would be a "forced" change rather than an ideological one.

Yes, but you have a garden, where you can set up three or more compost handling bins al la Percy Thrower, however if you intend to put it in your domestic waste bin, that is a different matter, better to take it to the Elsan every time you go to the boat. As you seem to have a 'composting toilet' I assume you already have your three year cycling bins at home, or do you bag it in a nappy bag and hope it gets to the Biffa Bin without splitting. 

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21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You live in a dream world of your own making! The local to Jayne sewage station has its own wind turbine to save money on electric it also collects rainwater from local housing estate) to save money. Sewage takes a lot of energy to treat, you have already been told of the emissions but still don't see the value of composting poo

When I was doing my ONC and HNC in Electrical Engineering at night school, we had a trip to the local sewage works to see how they were actually not only self sufficient in electricity but actually feeding back into the Grid (this was I think - the early 70's). The leccy was generated by methane powered generators.

 

Also they used to sell "at the gate" self-seeded water melons and tomatoes grown from the sewage sludge (the human digestive system doesn't break down melon or tomato seeds, so these were 'secondhand' tomato and melons).

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48 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes, but you have a garden, where you can set up three or more compost handling bins al la Percy Thrower, however if you intend to put it in your domestic waste bin, that is a different matter, better to take it to the Elsan every time you go to the boat. As you seem to have a 'composting toilet' I assume you already have your three year cycling bins at home, or do you bag it in a nappy bag and hope it gets to the Biffa Bin without splitting. 

Yes, as I have said (repeatedly) we compost all our 'product' as part of our home composting arrangement. We produce 5 litres of 'product' per week on the boat, 50% of this is coir, the rest isn't.

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56 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Yes, as I have said (repeatedly) we compost all our 'product' as part of our home composting arrangement. We produce 5 litres of 'product' per week on the boat, 50% of this is coir, the rest isn't.

She does not listen 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When I was doing my ONC and HNC in Electrical Engineering at night school, we had a trip to the local sewage works to see how they were actually not only self sufficient in electricity but actually feeding back into the Grid (this was I think - the early 70's). The leccy was generated by methane powered generators.

 

Also they used to sell "at the gate" self-seeded water melons and tomatoes grown from the sewage sludge (the human digestive system doesn't break down melon or tomato seeds, so these were 'secondhand' tomato and melons).

Ours might do the same, but we have a wind turbine as well and the leaflet posted though the door said it was to run the place. Who knows they might be making a healthy profit good on them if they do 

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3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I accept your apology.

Soiled nappies and incontinence pads contain horrible smelly human waste and I detest being anywhere near it or smelling it. That waste is non-hazardous according to the government. There is a limit of 7Kg weight that you are allowed to dispose of in black bag waste.

 

I know nappy waste is classed as non hazardous by the government, the bit I am having difficulty with is extrapolating that to several pounds of untreated adult waste.    There aren't many (or any as far as I know) ways of disposing of nappies and incontinence pads etc other than bins.    There is a way of disposing of adult human waste.

 

I suspect the government is being pragmatic about nappies mixed in with other waste, I am not sure that means they accept bags of large amounts of adult waste.  Do you have any reference other than the one you very kindly provided which make sit clear such waste is hygiene waste.

 

I am puzzled as faeces are classed as offensive waste:

 

So what actually IS offensive waste? Well it’s not waste that shouts obscenities at you from across the street, but rather the name given to a collection of wastes deemed; non-infectious, non-hazardous and not needing a specialist means of disposal – but does cause offence to those who may come into contact with it. Such waste includes:

  • human and animal faeces
  • vomit
  • urine

As I read the regs such waste needs disposed of in "Tiger bags"    i.e. black and yellow striped bags to make it easily identifiable by those handling the waste.    How many boat owners who dump their waste in bins know about tiger bags let alone use them.   Not sure where the specialist means of disposal fits in with just dumping in a general bin.

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

 

I suspect the government is being pragmatic about nappies mixed in with other waste, I am not sure that means they accept bags of large amounts of adult waste.  Do you have any reference other than the one you very kindly provided which make sit clear such waste is hygiene waste.

No, only the 2 government documents posted above.

I think a lot of peeps dont understand how waste is handled....or not handled. My job (part time) gets me involved with waste processesing and our company is supplied by sorted waste from local Authorities. Most LA's operate without people touching the 'nasty' stuff. Cardiff for example collect black bag waste and sorted waste. The sorting performance by households is good so all black bags go direct to incineration. No manual intervention. Others who collect unsorted waste ie what you get from CRT bins, have a picking line. The waste ends up on a big belt and black bags are split open. The content of the bags plus other stuff go down the belt and people in PPE remove the valuable stuff ie bottles, wire, paint cans etc etc. What is left on the belt is untouched by human hand and goes to landfill or incineration. They will leave small bagged stuff ie double bagged using compostable food waste bags. A small squidgy biodegradable bag will be left as it is likely to contain a nappy etc. They go into the 'skip' to go on to landfill or incineration without getting touched. Dont forget, a lot of councils only collect black bag waste every 4 weeks so what is in there can be rather ripe.

A person disposing of the dry solid waste from a composting loo (which doesnt smell) should double bag it in something obvious - like a biodegradable food waste bag. No one will touch it.

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2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think a lot of peeps dont understand how waste is handled....or not handled.

 

As an aside, this is why I tell people not to bag recyclables.  If there isn't a dedicated recyclables bin and you have to put bottles or tins in general waste, chuck them in loose and there's about a 65% chance (nationally) they'll get recycled anyway.  They are very obvious on the sorting line, and easy to pick.

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No, only the 2 government documents posted above.

I think a lot of peeps dont understand how waste is handled....or not handled. My job (part time) gets me involved with waste processesing and our company is supplied by sorted waste from local Authorities. Most LA's operate without people touching the 'nasty' stuff. Cardiff for example collect black bag waste and sorted waste. The sorting performance by households is good so all black bags go direct to incineration. No manual intervention. Others who collect unsorted waste ie what you get from CRT bins, have a picking line. The waste ends up on a big belt and black bags are split open. The content of the bags plus other stuff go down the belt and people in PPE remove the valuable stuff ie bottles, wire, paint cans etc etc. What is left on the belt is untouched by human hand and goes to landfill or incineration. They will leave small bagged stuff ie double bagged using compostable food waste bags. A small squidgy biodegradable bag will be left as it is likely to contain a nappy etc. They go into the 'skip' to go on to landfill or incineration without getting touched. Dont forget, a lot of councils only collect black bag waste every 4 weeks so what is in there can be rather ripe.

A person disposing of the dry solid waste from a composting loo (which doesnt smell) should double bag it in something obvious - like a biodegradable food waste bag. No one will touch it.

So how does that fit in with Offensive waste regulations which clearly specify Tiger bags and specialist disposal?

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3 hours ago, Jerra said:

So how does that fit in with Offensive waste regulations which clearly specify Tiger bags and specialist disposal?

I really don't know.

Our son with an 11 month old just chucks them in the bin. If the tiger bags is true, then someone isn't selling them well. I agree with you, it sounds a great idea!

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