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First year with a composting toilet


frahkn

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52 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

I'm not sure why you find it disgusting. Millions of people each day throw human waste (mixed poo and wee) into bins in the form of soiled nappies -millions of nappies per day. That is not illegal. How many boaters dont throw their soiled toilet paper down the loo but instead bag it to throw in the bin?

I expect you have not seen the solid desicated waste that comes out of one of these toilets in making the comments you make. It is not the horrible slimey smelly mess that people think.

Once it is double bagged and put in a bin (not on the floor by a full bin), then no one will touch it until it ends up in landfill or an incinerator.

Escherichia Coli, one of the bugs which give you diarrhoea. 

I spent a good part of my working life encouraging people to keep food products clean.

Food handlers should wash their hands after going to the toilet, this is ONLY one step in prevention of disease transmission. Would you believe some of them don't bother, after all, we have all been excreting since Eve ate the apple. 

One step. Is not touching your own faeces, two steps is not ingesting someone else's. 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

I'm not sure why you find it disgusting. Millions of people each day throw human waste (mixed poo and wee) into bins in the form of soiled nappies -millions of nappies per day. That is not illegal. How many boaters dont throw their soiled toilet paper down the loo but instead bag it to throw in the bin?

I expect you have not seen the solid desicated waste that comes out of one of these toilets in making the comments you make. It is not the horrible slimey smelly mess that people think.

Once it is double bagged and put in a bin (not on the floor by a full bin), then no one will touch it until it ends up in landfill or an incinerator.

So now you are encouraging people to buy a shit bucket and put their shit in two plastic bags, illegally dispose of it and send it  to landfill where it creates methane and causes global warming? 

I don't know why anyone would separate the contaminated toilet paper, most civilised people put it in to the sewerage system, why would they do otherwise? 

And by the way, the guy who empties the Biffa Bin and the guy who handles the wastes thereafter is not going to go along with this nonsense, it's illegal for a reason.

I am not going to go down the dirty nappy route, it is still illegal to put faeces in to bins, but it comes under 'deemed acceptable'. Years ago it was 'acceptable, indeed, legal to hunt whales, we have moved on. 

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

 

 

So now you are encouraging people to buy a shit bucket and put their shit in two plastic bags, illegally dispose of it and send it  to landfill where it creates methane and causes global warming? 

I don't know why anyone would separate the contaminated toilet paper, most civilised people put it in to the sewerage system, why would they do otherwise? 

 

err, forgive me you for being thick but surely an expert in all things should understand that poo emits methane regardless of whether it is wrapped up in a plastic bag and dumped in landfill or disposed of in any other manner including being transported by gallons of water to a treatment plant at great cost.

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Escherichia Coli, one of the bugs which give you diarrhoea. 

I spent a good part of my working life encouraging people to keep food products clean.

Food handlers should wash their hands after going to the toilet, this is ONLY one step in prevention of disease transmission. Would you believe some of them don't bother, after all, we have all been excreting since Eve ate the apple. 

One step. Is not touching your own faeces, two steps is not ingesting someone else's. 

 

 

So now you are encouraging people to buy a shit bucket and put their shit in two plastic bags, illegally dispose of it and send it  to landfill where it creates methane and causes global warming? 

I don't know why anyone would separate the contaminated toilet paper, most civilised people put it in to the sewerage system, why would they do otherwise? 

And by the way, the guy who empties the Biffa Bin and the guy who handles the wastes thereafter is not going to go along with this nonsense, it's illegal for a reason.

I am not going to go down the dirty nappy route, it is still illegal to put faeces in to bins, but it comes under 'deemed acceptable'. Years ago it was 'acceptable, indeed, legal to hunt whales, we have moved on. 

It is NOT illegal. Millions throw nappies away. Where do you get this nonsense from?

Have you not travelled abroad? Many many countries put soiled toilet paper in bins and not down the toilet as do many with pump out tanks on boats or sea toilets on lumpy water boats.

 

Years ago, everyone used terry towelling nappies - in the 80's they switched to plastic ones that go in the bin and nothing has changed since. Where do you think parents throw them?

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

It is NOT illegal. Millions throw nappies away. Where do you get this nonsense from?

Have you not travelled abroad? Many many countries put soiled toilet paper in bins and not down the toilet as do many with pump out tanks on boats or sea toilets on lumpy water boats.

 

Years ago, everyone used terry towelling nappies - in the 80's they switched to plastic ones that go in the bin and nothing has changed since. Where do you think parents throw them?

Bob she has a real problem with composting loos! 

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

So now you are encouraging people to buy a shit bucket and put their shit in two plastic bags, illegally dispose of it and send it  to landfill where it creates methane and causes global warming? 

If you look at the link that Redwing posted it contains an article from the CRT with their advice on composting toilet waste.

 

6 minutes ago, redwing said:

That specifically says

 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed at an Elsan/sanitary station. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to pilot a facility for solid waste from composting loos as part of the London Mooring Strategy but in the meantime liquids go into the Elsan unit and solids should be bagged in a nappy bag and placed in the domestic waste bins. Please don’t dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water, knowing that it hasn’t composted properly. 

 

Lady G, please will you stop saying it is illegal to put desicated waste from a compost toilet in the bin. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

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28 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

If you look at the link that Redwing posted it contains an article from the CRT with their advice on composting toilet waste.

 

That specifically says

 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed at an Elsan/sanitary station. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to pilot a facility for solid waste from composting loos as part of the London Mooring Strategy but in the meantime liquids go into the Elsan unit and solids should be bagged in a nappy bag and placed in the domestic waste bins. Please don’t dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water, knowing that it hasn’t composted properly. 

 

Lady G, please will you stop saying it is illegal to put desicated waste from a compost toilet in the bin. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

This debate takes me back about 25 years when as a manager for District Nurses we were approached by the local council concerned about the disposal of adult incontinence products by our staff. They claimed it was contrary to hazardous waste disposal legislation.

 

After much to-ing and fro-ing the council capitulated when it was repeatedly pointed out there was little or no difference to the disposal of babies nappies and if we were required to set up a dedicated waste collection service (at considerable cost) they should really be doing the same for babies nappies (also at considerble cost).

 

The issue diminished from their agenda quite quickly.

 

So I think its highly unlikely to be illeagal, unpleasant possibly, but illeagal no.

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4 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

This debate takes me back about 25 years when as a manager for District Nurses we were approached by the local council concerned about the disposal of adult incontinence products by our staff. They claimed it was contrary to hazardous waste disposal legislation.

 

After much to-ing and fro-ing the council capitulated when it was repeatedly pointed out there was little or no difference to the disposal of babies nappies and if we were required to set up a dedicated waste collection service (at considerable cost) they should really be doing the same for babies nappies (also at considerble cost).

 

The issue diminished from their agenda quite quickly.

 

So I think its highly unlikely to be illeagal, unpleasant possibly, but illeagal no.

I'm quite confident that it's not illegal but that is not the point; surely if you choose a composting toilet you need some arrangement for composting the output.

 

I would not have had one (despite the convienience) if I was not in a position to arrange composting.

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14 hours ago, peterboat said:

BWML so it's a few marinas 

There is a reason for the decision by BWML, they just had more awareness than most marina owners.

Any marina that allows human faeces to be put in to Biffa bins is acting illegally as this is hazardous waste, read the small print on the contract. Some of the Biffa bins have a notice on them.

The fact that most people put nappies and incontinence pads in to domestic waste does not make it non hazardous waste.

Edited by LadyG
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25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

There is a reason for the decision by BWML, they just had more awareness than most marina owners.

Any marina that allows human faeces to be put in to Biffa bins is acting illegally as this is hazardous waste, read the small print on the contract. Some of the Biffa bins have a notice on them.

The fact that most people put nappies and incontinence pads in to domestic waste does not make it non hazardous waste.

Find where its illegal and that means no more nappies in bins as well, I think you are wrong

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20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

There is a reason for the decision by BWML, they just had more awareness than most marina owners.

Any marina that allows human faeces to be put in to Biffa bins is acting illegally as this is hazardous waste, read the small print on the contract. Some of the Biffa bins have a notice on them.

The fact that most people put nappies and incontinence pads in to domestic waste does not make it non hazardous waste.

Human waste is not "hazardous waste". https://www.gov.uk/how-to-classify-different-types-of-waste/healthcare-and-related-wastes  

 

 

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BWML's statement :

 

Brown Waste

It is illegal to discharge any sewage into the marina and all sea toilet seacocks should be closed when berthed in a BWML marina to ensure there is no accidental discharge. Consider a holding tank if using a sea-going craft for residential purposes, rather than face the possible prosecution by the Environment Agency. Elsan disposal points are available for portable toilets systems, and do not empty cassettes into the marina or toilets. Even if you have a pump out fitted, it is worth considering a ‘cassette’ style toilet for the winter months as marinas do freeze over. Currently, composting toilets are not permitted in BWML marinas under the current waste transfer laws.

 

 

I am not aware of any legislation stopping the use of bins for 'crap', be it in a nappy, a bin bag, or 'loose', but I do know that the Transfer of waste regulations are very, very tough, and enforced, with transgressions being fined very heavily.

 

We use Biffa and on the contract we have to detail exactly what we are putting into the bins, any changes have to be documented and agreed - the bin collection / emptying prices vary with the contents.

This is why you will find that as you walk past many shops their bins are actually locked - this is to stop passers-by putting 'unknown'stuff into the bin outside of the shops bin-contract. The 'shop' owner has full responsibility for the bin contents.

The company I used to work for had a very strongly enforced policy that no rubbish should be bought from home and put into the company 'skips'.

 

We were doing some refurbs and had a small amount of plasterboard (which is not allowed to be put in the Biffa bins) and had to arrange for a 'special' bin pick-up.

 

Maybe BWML would look more kindly on the 'crap dumpers'  if they paid the going rate for the contract to be amended to cover it.

 

Edit to remove randomly appearing extra letters.

 

 

What is a legal requirement is that every commercial 'bin' must have a Waste Transfer Note detailing the contents of the bin.

From Dispose of business or commercial waste: Waste transfer notes - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Waste transfer notes

For each load of non-hazardous waste you move off your premises, you need a waste transfer note or a document with the same information, such as an invoice.

Register online to:

  • fill in a waste transfer note for a single load of waste
  • create a season ticket for a series of loads

Or download a waste transfer note to fill in and sign on paper.

Your business and the business taking your waste both need to:

  1. Fill in the sections of the waste transfer note that apply to you.

  2. Sign it.

  3. Keep a copy for 2 years.

  4. Show it to an enforcement officer from your local council or the Environment Agency if asked.

You must include enough information to help the business taking your waste to handle and dispose of it safely.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 hours ago, frahkn said:

I'm quite confident that it's not illegal but that is not the point; surely if you choose a composting toilet you need some arrangement for composting the output.

 

I would not have had one (despite the convienience) if I was not in a position to arrange composting.

My comment was specific to the legality.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider one either. There is a more than adequate existing means of disposing of human waste on the network.

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

My comment was specific to the legality.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider one either. There is a more than adequate existoing means of disposing of human waste on the network.

If they are so great why do these handful of boaters with them not have one in their house?

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40 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

If they are so great why do these handful of boaters with them not have one in their house?

Especially as they would get a double benefit. Not paying for the flush water and not paying the water disposal charge that is base don water used. In fact they could pour the liquid waste down the drain and not be charged for its disposal.

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13 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Years ago, everyone used terry towelling nappies - in the 80's they switched to plastic ones that go in the bin and nothing has changed since. 

I think that was the start of the switch but our girls were born in the 80s and all the mothers at playgroup used Terry nappies.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

If they are so great why do these handful of boaters with them not have one in their house?

That is an interesting question. If you started from scratch building your own house in the middle of nowhere, a composting toilet would be better for the environment than a septic tank. Now that proper composting toilets are appearing, they become an option.

The environmental angle is very interesting. Lady G incorrectly states they are worse for the environment but that is not true. In 'normal' toilets, the wee and poo mix together. The poo contains bacteria that form urease ensyme which when mixed with wee, rapidly breaks down the urea in the wee to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. That is what you are smelling with your cassettes or holding tank. Large amounts of CO2 are made which end up in the atmosphere. In the case of the composting toilet, the liquids and solids dont mix – so if the liquid is used as a fertiliser, there is less CO2 released to the atmosphere and the carbon is 'fixed' in the ground. This only works if you can i) separate the wee from the poo and ii) have somewhere to spread the liquid which is zero problem if you have a reasonable sized garden. If you are building 27 houses on a postage stamp, obviously this would be a big problem hence current methods of sewage disposal. We just accept current sewage disposal is OK, but think about all that CO2 being pushed back in the atmosphere. We ignore it as there is no other option. For anyone who has land on which to spread the liquid, that is a far more sensible and environmentaly friendly option – and canal based boaters do have that option if out in the countryside. In urban areas, the liquid can go down the elsan or a toilet as we all do now.

The thing to bear in mind here is that you HAVE TO SEPARATE the wee from the poo. Mr Smelly keeps banging on about “might as well do it in a bag” - No! That is no use. That really is a problem. Separate it and there is an environmental advantage with less greenhouse gasses formed.

…...and as Tony says, there is a lot less water used!

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Especially as they would get a double benefit. Not paying for the flush water and not paying the water disposal charge that is base don water used. In fact they could pour the liquid waste down the drain and not be charged for its disposal.

They have built houses with composting toilets, eco homes I read about it in a hospital waiting room 

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17 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Which part of the link refers to faeces?   I can't find it.

The bit that says:

 

Offensive waste

‘Offensive waste’ is non-clinical waste that’s non-infectious and does not contain pharmaceutical or chemical substances, but may be unpleasant to anyone who comes into contact with it.

  Examples Waste status Human healthcare Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste Non-hazardous 18-01-04 18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste

Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads

 

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4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

That is an interesting question. If you started from scratch building your own house in the middle of nowhere, a composting toilet would be better for the environment than a septic tank. Now that proper composting toilets are appearing, they become an option.

The environmental angle is very interesting. Lady G incorrectly states they are worse for the environment but that is not true. In 'normal' toilets, the wee and poo mix together. The poo contains bacteria that form urease ensyme which when mixed with wee, rapidly breaks down the urea in the wee to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. That is what you are smelling with your cassettes or holding tank. Large amounts of CO2 are made which end up in the atmosphere. In the case of the composting toilet, the liquids and solids dont mix – so if the liquid is used as a fertiliser, there is less CO2 released to the atmosphere and the carbon is 'fixed' in the ground. This only works if you can i) separate the wee from the poo and ii) have somewhere to spread the liquid which is zero problem if you have a reasonable sized garden. If you are building 27 houses on a postage stamp, obviously this would be a big problem hence current methods of sewage disposal. We just accept current sewage disposal is OK, but think about all that CO2 being pushed back in the atmosphere. We ignore it as there is no other option. For anyone who has land on which to spread the liquid, that is a far more sensible and environmentaly friendly option – and canal based boaters do have that option if out in the countryside. In urban areas, the liquid can go down the elsan or a toilet as we all do now.

The thing to bear in mind here is that you HAVE TO SEPARATE the wee from the poo. Mr Smelly keeps banging on about “might as well do it in a bag” - No! That is no use. That really is a problem. Separate it and there is an environmental advantage with less greenhouse gasses formed.

…...and as Tony says, there is a lot less water used!

We had a septic tank when I lived in Scotland  the roof water went through it as well, it had large soak away after it. It was in the farmers field and never caused a problem, the grass was always green and long.  The tank was pumped out yearly when the muck spreading happened it was mixed with cow shit and helping feed the land. LG will be along shortly telling me its illegal 

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

The bit that says:

 

Offensive waste

‘Offensive waste’ is non-clinical waste that’s non-infectious and does not contain pharmaceutical or chemical substances, but may be unpleasant to anyone who comes into contact with it.

  Examples Waste status Human healthcare Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste Non-hazardous 18-01-04 18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste

Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads

 

Sorry I didn't interpret hygiene waste as bags full of solid excreta.   Nappies and incontinence pads I can understand but I didn't think Hygiene waste menat large quantities of human waste.

 

I assumed hygiene waste was such things as wet wipes, cotton buds etc.

 

I was assuming it would come under anatomical waste and couldn't make it into anything other than hazardous as faeces are undoubtedly infectious e.g. Covid 19 has been found in faeces.

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