Solar

[WotEver]

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

He is, however an internationally respected electrical and electronics engineer...

So therefore most unlikely to know much about narrowboat 12V systems. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

So therefore most unlikely to know much about narrowboat 12V systems. 

 

One of the most feared things a customer of plumbers/heating/boiler technicians can ever say to us is "I'm an engineer, you know..."

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

One of these ?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

He is not an expert in solar on NBs in UK.

No.... you said that before, which is why I raised my concerns.

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

 

I have done an audit, near enough my [unlimited] mains usage, though I do use marina washing machine. 

I might get one of these.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Battery-Monitor-Voltmeter-Motorhome-Lead-Acid/dp/B07CTKYFTG/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=battery+monitor&qid=1583752041&sr=8-2

 

This is worth a watch.... I think it's the same monitor:

 

 

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

So therefore most unlikely to know much about narrowboat 12V systems. 

He knows than anyone else round here, spends a lot of time working on superyachts, trawlers, etc when he is not training people, running RYA courses, racing motorbikes, and flying light aircraft etc .

Maybe 25 years or so in the business of boat electrics/electronics.

Nothing special about narrowboats except there are more bodged systems than one would get in any production yachts.

I  did explain previously, I'll be blunter, the original boat electrics are bodged. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by LadyG

[Guest]

On 07/03/2020 at 23:26, Rumsky said:

Its a tempting route to take. My latest set of batteries I have looked after the best way I can. Pure Lead Carbon, monitored with BMV and Smartguage, charged regularly with extensive cruising, small amount of solar until I had more added this winter, and engine running when sitting in a spot for any length of time where solar wasn't sufficient to recharge. After all that my current readings still show I've lost about 1/3 of their capacity since a year and a half ago. Not sure where the problem lies, or if these batteries are particularly affected by cooler temperatures capacity-wise, but I've tried to stop thinking about it too much and will just use them until they're unusable. 

 

On 08/03/2020 at 09:46, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is interesting and must be very disappointing for you. I thought the whole point of lead carbon batts is that they are claimed by the manus not to sulphate up, but you appear to have illustrated otherwise. Assuming the loss of capacity IS sulphation. In fact IIRC the manus also claim you don't have to keep them fully charged anyway.

 

Have you been bothered enough to ask the manu about it?

 

Does a Smartgauge actually work correctly with lead carbon batts? I've not noticed any mention of them in the SG manual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems I was a little hasty in posting that about my lead carbons. This winter I had my boat in a marina for a couple of months and was on hookup, using mostly 240v stuff through that, and the batteries were being kept topped up from the solar. 

 

I was aware batteries can get lazy from not being cycled, but didn't realise how much of a kick they needed to come out of hibernation. 

 

After a few more deeper cycles the capacity seems to have jumped significantly again (even though according to the BMV the amount of amps being put back in was the same as I had taken out, not pushing in any extra)

 

My latest readings show they're almost back to full health, so fingers crossed they're not actually bad batteries at all. 

[WotEver]

19 hours ago, Rumsky said:

I was aware batteries can get lazy from not being cycled, but didn't realise how much of a kick they needed to come out of hibernation. 

Coup de fouet. 
 

I learned that here

 

 

[Rickent]

Waiting for the sun god to get to work.

[Alan de Enfield]

Why have you put damaged panels on, or is there where you have hit it with the 'slide' ?

 

It does look a bit of a precarious position to put that 1st panel.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Col_T]

Or is it water on the camera lens??

[Rickent]

 

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why have you put damaged panels on, or is there where you have hit it with the 'slide' ?

 

It does look a bit of a precarious position to put that 1st panel.

The photo is taken through the plastic of the pram hood.

The hatch is almost at it's full limit when it gets to the panel, we very rarely open it that far. Not ideal but should be ok.

The hatch was open when the picture was taken .

[LadyG]

On 09/03/2020 at 10:48, WotEver said:

So therefore most unlikely to know much about narrowboat 12V systems. 

Sadly, i think that was prophetic, lol.

I try to keep positive

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I try to keep positive

Can't do that with AC systems...

[LadyG]

Well maybe someone can think about my next problem: bear in mind I am rapidly running through the boat budget for the year 2020/3.

There are three battery banks.

Two are in the stern, but one is in the bow. 

The two bow batteries are of indeterminate age and type they seem OK, but I anticipate they may need replaced sometime, how do I know when that time is?

Should it make a big difference if the bow batteries are moved to the stern, it would seem logical that having big fat batteries near the solar is going to be more efficient, or is it just splitting hairs.

Will the old batteries pull down the new ones. 

 At the moment there is a small inverter and a water pump at the sharp end. This is convenient.

The fridge [amidships ] seems to run from the bow, not sure exactly how it is wired, let's just say the new fridge will be more efficient than the existing one, data says 5 amps, it's CRE - 50

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by LadyG

[WotEver]

Do you use the bowthruster? If so then you need the batteries up front.  If not, it's a stupid place to have them.

[RufusR]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well maybe someone can think about my next problem: bear in mind I am running through the budget for the year 20020/3.

There are three battery banks.

Two are in the stern, but one is in the bow. 

The two bow batteries are of indeterminate age and type they seem OK, but I anticipate they may need replaced sometime, how do I know when that time is?

Should it make a big difference if the bow batteries are moved to the stern, it would seem logical that having big fat batteries near the solar is going to be more efficient, or is it logical.

 At the moment there is a small inverter and a water pump at the sharp end. This is convenient.

The fridge [amidships ] seems to run from the bow, not sure exactly how it is wired, let's just say the new fridge will be more efficient than the existing one

 

Is the whole bank wired as one or as two banks ? And do you have battery Monitor(s) for them ? If so if they are not 

holding charge and dropping below 12volts regularly without a lot of load then it’s time . 

 

Re position where is the charge controller / inverter positioned they should be close to them to avoid loses in the cables .

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Do you use the bowthruster? If so then you need the batteries up front.  If not, it's a stupid place to have them.

Yes ditto

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Do you use the bowthruster? If so then you need the batteries up front.  If not, it's a stupid place to have them.

 

Bowthruster, wot bowthruster?

lol, I have a bow thruster motor but no no tube.

it's a Vetus, is it worth big money?

I know I think it is a stupid idea, but actually, does it really matter, can one just say .......oh, these batteries are "boosting the energy which has dropped off as it came from the stern?

The main thing today, is is it best to abandon sending 12 volt magic electrons down from the solar, to the bow, then back to the fridge amidships.

I still want a 240 volt socket somewhere in the bow area, for my laptop, but I could live with it in my bedroom 

Edited May 27, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

errrr,

There are three battery banks, domestic [3x135ah], Bow [2 x something] , and starter, [only 1] which seems to hold charge.

I am not an electrician, and I am not sure how to answer @RufusR

Inside the gubbins there is a VERY big busbar type of thing, three positives [RED fat cables]

outside, there are three  elephant ear isolators.

I think the solar charges all three banks.

I think when I start the engine,with "starter bank", the starter battery drops like mad then recovers within 15 -20mins.

It seems likely that the solar views all the batteries as one battery.

Edited May 27, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

Morning folks and folkesses,

not so sunny today, a true test for the new solar set up.

There is one LED voltage indicator, it is at the bow, the state of health of batteries was previously monitored by this plus turning the engine on and checking the draw [analogue amp meter], which varied from +30 amps to 5 amps, time to run engine 7 hours worse case,, and four hours a few times, mostly once a week, they never went below 12.1 as far as I remember.

Now , after one full charging day [showing 100% most of the afternoon], with bright sunshine and the solar actually moderating output, the led is showing 12.24 not long after sunrise, but battery on Epever controller is 55% I have had fridge on  most of the day, off most of the night. and the Webasto running maybe three or four hours overnight.

We set the battery capacity at 600ah AGM to reflect 3x135 ah newish batteries, 2 bow batteries, one starter battery. If I increase nominal capacity will I get the batteries charge up a notch to eg 12.4, is it worth bothering about tweaking ah capacity when it all seems to be working? 

At this moment [06.30, weak sunlight due to cloud, the panels are puting in 0.7amps, I need to turn off Webasto and fridge or run the engine to boost batteries, maybe , being AGM they won't be damaged at 55%, but it won't do them any good, also I expect older batteries and younger batteries, , being in different banks, to respond "individually" .

I have a notion that the Epever kicks them in to touch [aka equalising] about the 28th of the month, or did I dream that?

The forecast is bright sun from 08.00 to 19.30, so I'll leave them alone today, but I would prefer to boost with the engine for an hour or two to put in 30-45 amps

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[RufusR]

Full for AGM batteries is 12.7 to 12.9 volts after surface charge has gone so your bank looks like it is either in a low partial state of charge most of time ( not good even for agms ) or they are on their last legs or at least the bow ones are . 

 

Maybe take off all loads if you can for about 8 hours on a sunny day and let them go through a full absorption cycle .

 

If you they are not reading the above voltage range or above afterwards then suggest batteries are on way out . 

 

Ignore epever soc it’s nonsense as it measures it from voltage not current in and out . For proper soc measurement you need a monitor with a shunt on the negative line .  

 

Note ts you will never properly charge the batteries with the alternator alone , solar is good but using alternator as a charger will eventually wreck your batteries before their time . AGM’s are more resilient to PSoC (partial state of charge ) sulfuration (sic) but not impervious . They need to be properly charged to 100% preferably through a proper charger at least once a week to ensure a long life . Solar can do this through mppt as long as the suns out but not in the winter . 

Edited May 28, 2020 by RufusR

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, RufusR said:

Full for AGM batteries is 12.7 to 12.9 volts after surface charge has gone so your bank looks like it is either in a low partial state of charge most of time ( not good even for agms ) or they are on their last legs or at least the bow ones are . 

 

Maybe take off all loads if you can for about 8 hours on a sunny day and let them go through a full absorption cycle .

 

If you they are not reading the above voltage range or above afterwards then suggest batteries are on way out . 

 

Ignore epever soc it’s nonsense as it measures it from voltage not current in and out . For proper soc measurement you need a monitor with a shunt on the negative line .  

Ok, well I think I need to remove the two older bow batteries then, but if I just isolate them, does this not have the same effect?

Hopefully the new [aug 2019] 3x135ah are alive and kicking, 

What concerns me is that if Epever thinks oh, we are at 100% because, after all, the batteries are only 600ah, , I'll cut the voltage now [ie too early]

This would mean that they would never get to 12.7 to 12.9 steady state, though in the past the LED monitor often goes to 13.4 on a good day, while charging.

 I can't believe I have killed my new 3x135 AGMs, as I rarely let the voltage drop much, and rarely used the Webasto or shower, and just a bit of refrigeration, so all they really  had to cope with was the water pump, and and a laptop, now replaced with a tablet.

I was on shorepower with a non smart chargr on and off as required, this will be replaced with a Victron charger.

I m only running the alternator from time to time, as not on shorepower for last six weeks, the new solar replaces th old solar, and is expectd to provie energy six months of the year, for the rest of the yar I will be travelling [this won't burn out the alternator will it? , or be on mains at least once a week, maybe very day for a few months. Essentially I will be cc , low consumption, 550 watts solar, 600 ah leisure batteries.

I expect the bow btteris might be nar ed of life, the first electrician binned four old AGMs, I assumed the one's  left were OK, now I am thinking he just replaced the Domestic bank as I asked, perhaps he did not check the others, it's a while ago, but I am sure I would have indicted that I wanted to improve the batteries in order to cc.

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Now , after one full charging day [showing 100% most of the afternoon], with bright sunshine and the solar actually moderating output, the led is showing 12.24 not long after sunrise, but battery on Epever controller is 55% I have had fridge on  most of the day, off most of the night. and the Webasto running maybe three or four hours overnight.

I think you have a problem with either the condition of the batteries (undercharged and sulphated) or the instrumentation calibration / set up is incorrect, or you think you have a 600Ah domestic bank.

 

If you have everything turned off (Including the fridge) with only the webby on, and, on a 600Ah battery bank you have gone from 100% to 50% (ie 300Ah used) just from 'dusk to dawn' there is something wrong.

 

Are all of the batteries connected to your 'domestics' bank ?

Are you fooling yourself that the 'new' 135Ah batteries have been well charged ?

Is you monitoring equipment monitoring the 'total' battery bank ?

How can you use 300Ah overnight (a 'normal' full day usage is generally around 100-120Ah)

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

If I increase nominal capacity will I get the batteries charge up a notch...

No.  The only purpose of that setting is to assist the kit in getting a closer approximation of the State of Charge to display.  It will always be wrong, whatever you set it to, so you should simply ignore any SoC readout.

[WotEver]

9 hours ago, LadyG said:

I still want a 240 volt socket somewhere in the bow area, for my laptop...

230V mains doesn't suffer from voltage drop, so it's much easier to run long 230V lines than it is to run long 12V lines.

 

All your batteries should be re-located to the rear and configured as a single bank.  All monitoring should be connected to the reconfigured bank.  Any inverter should also be located adjacent to the batteries.  It is nuts to have the 'bank' split across the length of the boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, WotEver said:

230V mains doesn't suffer from voltage drop, so it's much easier to run long 230V lines than it is to run long 12V lines.

 

All your batteries should be re-located to the rear and configured as a single bank.  All monitoring should be connected to the reconfigured bank.  Any inverter should also be located adjacent to the batteries.  It is nuts to have the 'bank' split across the length of the boat.

Don't forget that he was a highly qualified marine electrician who fitted out oil-tankers and such like, not just a tin-slug sparky !!