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Aluminium vs. Bonded windows- whats the difference?


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Discovered this on Caldwells site that they have a new section called "Bonded windows".

When spoke with one of their team on the phone in regards to difference between double glazed with thermal break in aluminium and same spec for bonded they just said it looks more modern/ sleek. Also the frame is just 4mm wider than the aluminium one, so in theory not much of difference.

Although they do look rather different and in a way elegant, would anyone be able to comment about these from their experience?

 

Why wouldnt someone choose black aluminium frame and tinted windows to achieve the same look, if they wanted to?

Meaning why do they offer a different type of window frame if a buyer could customise their aluminium range to get the same result.

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20 minutes ago, Batainte said:

They actually have a different category on their homepage, its not really obvious as its "hidden" underneath a separate link on "Narrowboat" section.

 

Heres the link.. http://caldwellswindows.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Bonded-Prices-2019.pdf

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Quite a sleek look which would suit some owners I guess. They’d look totally out of place on a traditionally styled boat. 

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Definitely agree as it suggests sort of gangsta' look as if it were a sports car with tinted windows. Nevertheless, having browsed through photos on their facebook page found a couple traditional narrowboats having installed bonded windows- surprisingly... looks kinda neat.

 

 

Screen shot 2020-03-06 at 16.53.15.png

Screen shot 2020-03-06 at 16.49.58.png

Edited by Batainte
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19 minutes ago, Batainte said:

found a couple traditional narrowboats...

See, I wouldn’t call those in any way ‘traditional’. They’re a modern take on a traditional style and as such, with a modern paint job to boot, suit those windows. 

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Hi I fit bonded glass to buses the idea is the framing does not have to be so strong and the bonded glass gives the strength To the bus sides

The thing with bonded Windows is you need special bonding glue and primers  to fit new glass

where as if in a frame you remove the frame strip it and fit the  new glass and refit the frame 

graham

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They do look rather good. I have a similar effect, but with conventional aluminium windows that had the frames powder coated black. Not sure how they are installed. If they are glued on to the boat shell these are the questions I'd have. How reliable is the bond with the differential thermal expansion between the steel side and the frame and glass? If you started to get rust in the steel under the frame, a common problem, how would you remove the bonded frame without destroying it? Similarly, if rain started leaking in, how would you remove and reseal? These are all problems with more conventionally fitted windows and can be really frustrating to fix as the screws, or bolts can corrode and snap and the seal can be really hard to remove. Are these bonded windows even harder to repair in ten, twenty years time?

 

Jen

My boat. Black powder coated normal aluminium frames.

IMG_20170620_171506.jpg.d9c0160b5d2efe1d7a9425a1bec1095f.jpg

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16 hours ago, WotEver said:

See, I wouldn’t call those in any way ‘traditional’. They’re a modern take on a traditional style and as such, with a modern paint job to boot, suit those windows. 

Well said- Had to word it a little better... "future-traditional" narrowboats. Perhap's theyd be classed as traditional in 30/40 years from now.

 

13 hours ago, jacko264 said:

Hi I fit bonded glass to buses the idea is the framing does not have to be so strong and the bonded glass gives the strength To the bus sides

The thing with bonded Windows is you need special bonding glue and primers  to fit new glass

where as if in a frame you remove the frame strip it and fit the  new glass and refit the frame 

graham

So to understand it correctly- would "bonded" mean that its permanently fixed? The frame on bus windows does feel quite rubbery, would assume that glass gets kinda budged in and the rubbery frame/ seal is what "bonds" the window to metalwork? In terms of bonded glass giving strength for a canalboat (as compared to road vehicle) this probably wont contribute much as the boats have greater thickness as well as different metal for its structure. Or would it?

 

11 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They do look rather good. I have a similar effect, but with conventional aluminium windows that had the frames powder coated black. Not sure how they are installed. If they are glued on to the boat shell these are the questions I'd have. How reliable is the bond with the differential thermal expansion between the steel side and the frame and glass? If you started to get rust in the steel under the frame, a common problem, how would you remove the bonded frame without destroying it? Similarly, if rain started leaking in, how would you remove and reseal? These are all problems with more conventionally fitted windows and can be really frustrating to fix as the screws, or bolts can corrode and snap and the seal can be really hard to remove. Are these bonded windows even harder to repair in ten, twenty years time?

 

Jen

My boat. Black powder coated normal aluminium frames.

Very valid concerns/ questions, which will get investigated with Caldwells once they are back on monday. Even though when spoken on the phone prior to this thread , they didnt provide much detail when asked to explain about the difference between their aluminium range and bonded ones. Apart from saying that they "...are more modern and sleek..with the frame being 4mm wider than aluminium.." that was all.

 

Before discovering their "Bonded window" section, thought of getting black powder coated as well. Only thing which wasnt clear that being powder coated they must attract plenty of dust and other things onto them or they come off easily even if it rains?

 

10 hours ago, Kudzucraft said:

Do they open?  Woudn't want a window I couldn't open.

They do, as @Jen-in-Wellies mentions below.

During the conversation with them, it was confirmed that bonded windows come with full hopper opening (glass can be removed) and can provide double glazed with thermal break system embedded.

 

Edited by Batainte
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1 hour ago, Batainte said:

Before discovering their "Bonded window" section, thought of getting black powder coated as well. Only thing which wasnt clear that being powder coated they must attract plenty of dust and other things onto them or they come off easily even if it rains?

Mine are still looking good at 12 years. Much better than some "brass" effect anodised aluminium windows of similar vintage I've seen, which can fade very badly.

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Another question about the bonded Caldwell windows to ask. How much of a variation in flatness of the steel panel can they cope with before the bonding gets too thin, or thick? Flatness of the cabin sides can vary a lot from boat to boat, depending on the skill of the boat builder.

What sort of warrantee are they offering? What does it cover and for how long? This is a multi thousand pound investment you are making in a new to narrowboats technology. Are you happy being a guinea pig?

Jen

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Mine are still looking good at 12 years. Much better than some "brass" effect anodised aluminium windows of similar vintage I've seen, which can fade very badly.

 

Interesting, my boat  is 12 years old and has powder coated aluminium windows which it is beginning to fail.  I prefer an anodised finish as it is proven to last.

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To fit bonded glass you have to have a perfectly clean frame your bonding too .

then you prime the frame with special black primer

The  glass has to be put on a stand and cleaned with special wipes and when dry painted with the same black primer as on the frameing this has to be done in a clean environment 

next you put the window bond on the frame with a air or battery gun  the bond is put on like a V shape that stands up about 10mm 

Now it's time to get the window fitted push the glass on the bond and slap the glass to make it flat to where you want it fitted

When the bond has dried you go around the glass with the same bonding glue  which is cald back fill 

when doing this the temperature has got to be right

graham

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2 hours ago, jacko264 said:

To fit bonded glass you have to have a perfectly clean frame your bonding too .

then you prime the frame with special black primer

The  glass has to be put on a stand and cleaned with special wipes and when dry painted with the same black primer as on the frameing this has to be done in a clean environment 

next you put the window bond on the frame with a air or battery gun  the bond is put on like a V shape that stands up about 10mm 

Now it's time to get the window fitted push the glass on the bond and slap the glass to make it flat to where you want it fitted

When the bond has dried you go around the glass with the same bonding glue  which is cald back fill 

when doing this the temperature has got to be right

graham

The Caldwell windows look to be a little different from the type of bonded glass vehicle windows you're describing. In this case, it is a frame, material unknown, but probably aluminium, bonded to the 4 to 5mm thick steel cabin sides, rather than the glass itself. These frames have drop back glass in them for ventilation, so the glass isn't bonded. I am guessing that installation methods are similar to bonded vehicle glass. Cleanliness, temperature and control being vital for a good and long lasting stick.

Jen

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Quote

 

Hi the windows in the photo of puffin at the top of the page look the same as modden buses  Windows the hopper part is hinged and the hinges are glued to the glass  the frame you think is there is not a frame but a black etch on the glass 

ps modden train carages are done the same

Graham

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On 07/03/2020 at 11:12, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Another question about the bonded Caldwell windows to ask. How much of a variation in flatness of the steel panel can they cope with before the bonding gets too thin, or thick? Flatness of the cabin sides can vary a lot from boat to boat, depending on the skill of the boat builder.

What sort of warrantee are they offering? What does it cover and for how long? This is a multi thousand pound investment you are making in a new to narrowboats technology. Are you happy being a guinea pig?

Jen

Caldwells forwarded some of their bonded window photos and it appears to be that these come with aluminium frame and the "bonded" part would be the outside seal. Perhaps the "bonded" part refers to having the holding frame attached via "bonding" method instead of "stapling" or screwing the facial plate onto the aluminium holding frame, thus making it look more sleek from outside.

* Posted their pictures below the post

 

Frankly speaking, as you mention being a guinea pig would be a rather costly experience in case everything goes bad, thanks for advice and the question suggestions. Will get in touch with them during their working hours and post their reply once everything is clear.

 

On 07/03/2020 at 13:05, cuthound said:

 

Interesting, my boat  is 12 years old and has powder coated aluminium windows which it is beginning to fail.  I prefer an anodised finish as it is proven to last.

The frame finish mystery is also an interesting one, when asked Caldwells sales team about their differences whether there is difference in upkeep, maintenance, durability etc.. apparently theres no difference apart the looks. Although they advised that powder coated seem to work well as its easier to wash the dirt away with some soapy water.

 

22 hours ago, jacko264 said:

To fit bonded glass you have to have a perfectly clean frame your bonding too .

then you prime the frame with special black primer

The  glass has to be put on a stand and cleaned with special wipes and when dry painted with the same black primer as on the frameing this has to be done in a clean environment 

next you put the window bond on the frame with a air or battery gun  the bond is put on like a V shape that stands up about 10mm 

Now it's time to get the window fitted push the glass on the bond and slap the glass to make it flat to where you want it fitted

When the bond has dried you go around the glass with the same bonding glue  which is cald back fill 

when doing this the temperature has got to be right

graham

Seems like this method would apply to the buses, trains, lightweight site machinery and other public transport. Assume that you are describing a single glazed unit, if so then what Caldwells mean by bonded appears to differ from the method you have explained. See the photos below for their version of bonded windows...

 

 

 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

Edited by Batainte
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14 minutes ago, jacko264 said:

Looking at the photos the black outer part looks like glass to me and the aluminium frame is bonded to it...

That’s how it looks to me too. 

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The outer part looks more like flat metal with a gloss black powder coat; from the point of view of strength, immunity to cracking when flexed of with temperature changes, this would make much more sense than using glass.

 

In which case the actual window frame is glued to the inside of this flat plate, which is then glued to the outside of the hull. Makes sense and would be strong and watertight, but difficult if you ever needed to change the windows, unless the glues was thermosetting so the frame (or window) could be peeled off if heated.

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To cut out bonded Windows  we use a viberating knife or cheese wire cutters 

because the glass is on a bond as I described  earlier the expansion and contraction will be taken up with the bond 

 

After  all I have said about bonded Windows I would still go for the traditional Windows in a aluminium frames  as bonded Windows is a pain in the bum to repair

Graham

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Contacted Caldwells about their bonded range and its been confirmed that outer facing frame is made of toughened glass and there is flexibility in bond after the frame has been attached to the shell itself. The process of attaching the frame is by using industry standard products which seem to be some form of adhesive and once applied, the frame is left to sit for a couple of hours and job done - all sealed, solid application etc..

In regards to ability of changing them in future, it was explained that by applying "cheese wire" between the frame and outer shell it would detach everything from the seal and therefore it could be removed entirely.

The glass holding frame is made of aluminium and they offer three finishes for bonded range (polished, ultrachromed, powder coated) for inner frame. No difference in their maintenance or durability apart from the looks. The polished finish perhaps would require a repolish every now and then, but ofcourse this is per boater's preference.

Would speculate that type of finish wouldnt be very evident if one would use a window lining anyway?

 

Apparently they have been doing bonded windows for years and so far have had no complaints or issues whatsoever with their performance.

 

The nice thing about this (as well as their aluminium range) is that outer frame colour can be customized based on RAL colour standards, some examples are available on here http://ralcolor.com/ and ofcourse on wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAL_colors

 

Hope this information helps anyone whos looking for this in future.

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