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Electoral Roll and Registration of address on a boat?


paddler1

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Good evening from a new/old member.

Advice/Opinion please.

i have owned and lived on my narrowboat for over 12years on a non residential mooring, paying my way for CRT and private moorings etc but have never got round to registering on the local electoral roll. I’m thinking of doing this soon as I understand it is possible to register when living on a narrowboat at a permanent mooring. How many boater’s do this or have a reason to do it I wonder? I tried to check my credit score but without a facility to accept nothing other than a permanent house address i found it impossible.

im really not bothered either way but I AM interested in the fact that there seems to be no recognition that some of us do quite happily reside in boats away from the nosy nellies of Experian etc....but why should this affect our credit score when I have a job, a bank and a National Insurance number?....has anyone else experienced this?

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Its relatively simple. Go to the council office in the place that covers where you want to vote ( cannot be done on line, must be paperwork ) You will have to register as homeless. All you need to give is a location that you frequently use, even if its a park bench you often sleep on for instance. I gave the cafe I use frequently to enable them to register me with the correct ward to vote in. It realy is that simple. I stated it was a bit offside that people who live in houses can do it all online and the staff at the Council offices were brilliant and agreed, apparently its being looked into with a view to doing it on line like the compliers in society do. Its a doddle with no daft questions ?

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1 hour ago, paddler1 said:

Good evening from a new/old member.

Advice/Opinion please.

i have owned and lived on my narrowboat for over 12years on a non residential mooring, paying my way for CRT and private moorings etc but have never got round to registering on the local electoral roll. I’m thinking of doing this soon as I understand it is possible to register when living on a narrowboat at a permanent mooring. How many boater’s do this or have a reason to do it I wonder? I tried to check my credit score but without a facility to accept nothing other than a permanent house address i found it impossible.

im really not bothered either way but I AM interested in the fact that there seems to be no recognition that some of us do quite happily reside in boats away from the nosy nellies of Experian etc....but why should this affect our credit score when I have a job, a bank and a National Insurance number?....has anyone else experienced this?

The part highlighted in Red - Just be very careful and consider the implications - you may be causing yourself untold problems.

 

You will almost certainly be :-

 

 

 

Can of Worms.png

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11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Its relatively simple. Go to the council office in the place that covers where you want to vote ( cannot be done on line, must be paperwork ) You will have to register as homeless. All you need to give is a location that you frequently use, even if its a park bench you often sleep on for instance. I gave the cafe I use frequently to enable them to register me with the correct ward to vote in. It realy is that simple. I stated it was a bit offside that people who live in houses can do it all online and the staff at the Council offices were brilliant and agreed, apparently its being looked into with a view to doing it on line like the compliers in society do. Its a doddle with no daft questions ?

It can be done online, I'm currently registered in Westminster.  That was all done online, starting with the electoral commission - https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk/register-to-vote/start - WCC accepted my signature and answers to the firm's questions by email, rather than printing it out and manually completing it....

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5 minutes ago, DaveP said:

It can be done online, I'm currently registered in Westminster.  That was all done online, starting with the electoral commission - https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk/register-to-vote/start - WCC accepted my signature and answers to the firm's questions by email, rather than printing it out and manually completing it....

R u sure? Without an address and homeless there is no way of completing the online form it simply doesn't cope with the reality. Council offices printed me one off and I took it in. Maybe then it's different in various places? Did you have a postcode? 

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Morning All and thanks for taking the time to reply.

i appreciate the advice given and have looked into it a little deeper. I found the form to register like you said on the commission website and have sent an email to the local council with a ‘tentative’ enquiry.

i take your point Alan but really in this day and age you should be able to register your existence without having too many problems arising from it, shouldn’t you?

when I said that I have lived on a non-residential mooring I just mean that it is not a ‘registered residential mooring’, it is an agreement I have with the owner of the land and then I pay the CRT for mooring on the canal and my licence. I have done this for many years openly and without a problem so I’m not sure what would change if I was to register with the local council?

i didn’t move on to the cut to avoid anything, I simply decided that I preferred to live on board a narrowboat rather than a house and would like the council to acknowledge that the process to register shouldn’t be different just because a boat is not 

seen as a property in their eyes and they have omitted to facilitate this with their processes.

i was sort of trying to gauge what other boater’s do when their sole residence is a narrowboat....am I an exception to be thinking of registering I wonder?

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8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

R u sure? Without an address and homeless there is no way of completing the online form it simply doesn't cope with the reality. Council offices printed me one off and I took it in. Maybe then it's different in various places? Did you have a postcode? 

Yep, I used the Paddington basin postcode, WCC asked me if I was permanently moored, I explained the circumstances (and that there wasn't that option on the online form) and they registered me as a local connection voter.  I used their offices as a correspondence address, but they've always sent stuff out by email to me...

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9 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

when I said that I have lived on a non-residential mooring I just mean that it is not a ‘registered residential mooring’, it is an agreement I have with the owner of the land and then I pay the CRT for mooring on the canal and my licence. I have done this for many years openly and without a problem so I’m not sure what would change if I was to register with the local council?

You can only live on a mooring if it is residential, to be residential it MUST have planning permission granted (presumably by the same council that you appear to be getting involved with re voting)

 

Whilst LA's do not communicate very well between departments (when you want them to) it would not be unknown for them to cross-refer information.

 

Voter registration department :

"We've got this guy who claims to live at post code XYZ, but that appears to be a lock on the canal - lets ask the Planning department ……………."

 

Planning Department :

"No, we have no record of any planning permissions for residential use around there"

 

Ooooooops !

 

Worms starting to escape from can.

 

Maybe you should ask the local pub if you can use their address.

It has been reported in the press that some of the homeless-shelters are allowing  folks to use their address when applying to register to vote.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, DaveP said:

Yep, I used the Paddington basin postcode, WCC asked me if I was permanently moored, I explained the circumstances (and that there wasn't that option on the online form) and they registered me as a local connection voter.  I used their offices as a correspondence address, but they've always sent stuff out by email to me...

Cool. Cherwell couldn't do it. Trouble is the UK can't seem to deal with anything without a postcode. I didn't have or give a postcode so maybe that's why u could do it online. I put them behind the 8 ball and didnt/wouldn't give a postcode hence unable to do it online, it's simply not possible as you cannot progress without the postcode. It's a right to vote and not a requirement to have a postcode in law. 

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Go here:  https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/people-no-fixed-address

 

Follow the instructions.  If in doubt, phone the elections office for your local council.

Yep just as I said. You have to download the form, cannot be done online. I know as I needed to go through it for last election. 

Compliant people with postcode can do it online. 

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can only live on a mooring if it is residential, to be residential it MUST have planning permission granted (presumably by the same council that you appear to be getting involved with re voting)

 

Whilst LA's do not communicate very well between departments (when you want them to) it would not be unknown for them to cross-refer information.

 

Voter registration department :

"We've got this guy who claims to live at post code XYZ, but that appears to be a lock on the canal - lets ask the Planning department ……………."

 

Planning Department :

"No, we have no record of any planning permissions for residential use around there"

 

Ooooooops !

 

Worms starting to escape from can.

 

Maybe you should ask the local pub if you can use their address.

It has been reported in the press that some of the homeless-shelters are allowing  folks to use their address when applying to register to vote.

With current GDPR, this is now less likely, but still possible.  Certain hoops have to be jumped through for elections to share addresses with planning.  The other, more problematic issue is around council tax, which I presume the OP isn't paying.  Council Tax enforcement is typically more tenacious than planning enforcement. 

 

The bottom line is that if the OP is living on a non-residential mooring, he/she is responsible for tax fraud along with a planning act breach and potentially a housing act breach.  Many others are in the same situation and most get away with it indefinitely.

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Cool. Cherwell couldn't do it. Trouble is the UK can't seem to deal with anything without a postcode. I didn't have or give a postcode so maybe that's why u could do it online. I put them behind the 8 ball and didnt/wouldn't give a postcode hence unable to do it online, it's simply not possible as you cannot progress without the postcode. It's a right to vote and not a requirement to have a postcode in law. 

Yep just as I said. You have to download the form, cannot be done online. I know as I needed to go through it for last election. 

Compliant people with postcode can do it online. 

Just because you declare a local connection, it doesn't mean you can't provide a postcode.  It depends on what address you declare your connection to.

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24 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

Morning All and thanks for taking the time to reply.

i appreciate the advice given and have looked into it a little deeper. I found the form to register like you said on the commission website and have sent an email to the local council with a ‘tentative’ enquiry.

i take your point Alan but really in this day and age you should be able to register your existence without having too many problems arising from it, shouldn’t you?

when I said that I have lived on a non-residential mooring I just mean that it is not a ‘registered residential mooring’, it is an agreement I have with the owner of the land and then I pay the CRT for mooring on the canal and my licence. I have done this for many years openly and without a problem so I’m not sure what would change if I was to register with the local council?

i didn’t move on to the cut to avoid anything, I simply decided that I preferred to live on board a narrowboat rather than a house and would like the council to acknowledge that the process to register shouldn’t be different just because a boat is not 

seen as a property in their eyes and they have omitted to facilitate this with their processes.

i was sort of trying to gauge what other boater’s do when their sole residence is a narrowboat....am I an exception to be thinking of registering I wonder?

You will find you are different. I've done it for 31 years. Just forget the mooring address and do it without. 

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6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

With current GDPR, this is now less likely, but still possible.  Certain hoops have to be jumped through for elections to share addresses with planning.  The other, more problematic issue is around council tax, which I presume the OP isn't paying.  Council Tax enforcement is typically more tenacious than planning enforcement. 

 

The bottom line is that if the OP is living on a non-residential mooring, he/she is responsible for tax fraud along with a planning act breach and potentially a housing act breach.  Many others are in the same situation and most get away with it indefinitely.

Just because you declare a local connection, it doesn't mean you can't provide a postcode.  It depends on what address you declare your connection to.

Facts are and I will bet you hard cash if you care to take me up? 

Cannot be done online if u yourself have no postcode address. Yes u can give the address and postcode of your local connection but without an address yourself you have to fill the paper form in. Been there, done it, got the T shirt. 

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2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Facts are and I will bet you hard cash if you care to take me up? 

Cannot be done online if u yourself have no postcode address. Yes u can give the address and postcode of your local connection but without an address yourself you have to fill the paper form in. Been there, done it, got the T shirt. 

I did it online, that's all I can say.  Clearly your experience was different.  Not that it makes much difference how you do it, but feel free to continue trying to force an argument.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can only live on a mooring if it is residential, to be residential it MUST have planning permission granted

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?...I you have this to hand I would appreciate a link to this?...or is that just an unwritten rule because believe me, I have looked. I appreciate that the councils my not have thought to include us but we shouldn’t be ignored either.

im not planning to upset my applecart either but would like to stay informed on the pros and cons....this come about really s I wanted to do a credit check on myself and could not proceed without a postcode so these things are all connected..has anyone managed to do this I wonder?

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1 minute ago, paddler1 said:

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?...I you have this to hand I would appreciate a link to this?...or is that just an unwritten rule because believe me, I have looked. I appreciate that the councils my not have thought to include us but we shouldn’t be ignored either.

im not planning to upset my applecart either but would like to stay informed on the pros and cons....this come about really s I wanted to do a credit check on myself and could not proceed without a postcode so these things are all connected..has anyone managed to do this I wonder?

As long as there is planning permission for residential mooring, and you are paying council tax, then it would be above board.  But then the mooring would have an address and postcode.  
 

If the above is not the case then it is under the radar, and perhaps best to just continue and keep your head down.

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5 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?...I you have this to hand I would appreciate a link to this?...or is that just an unwritten rule because believe me, I have looked. I appreciate that the councils my not have thought to include us but we shouldn’t be ignored either.

im not planning to upset my applecart either but would like to stay informed on the pros and cons....this come about really s I wanted to do a credit check on myself and could not proceed without a postcode so these things are all connected..has anyone managed to do this I wonder?

 

If you don't have a fixed abode, then you can't get credit since the bank doesn't have an address with which to serve papers to sue you.  Thus your credit score will marked as an unacceptable risk and no-one will or should lend you money.  As a collorary to this, you won't be able to hold a bank account either under the 'knowing your customers' regulations.  You will be able to get a 'basic' bank account, that doesn't allow an overdraft or a credit card to be associated with it.  If you do have a bank account or credit card, that's the address you should be using for a credit check...

 

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12 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?.

The Law states that the land you are attached to must have planning permission for residential use.

If the boat never moves, then not only does the 'land' require PP, but the boat will (probably) also need Residential PP

 

Residential use of a vessel that is designed for and capable of navigation (e.g. narrow boat, barge, cruiser) which is moored at a designated mooring base.

Planning permission is likely to be required for residential use of the mooring (i.e. the ’land’, including that covered by water). Planning permission will not be required for the vessel itself, unless it has become so fixed to the land as to be part of it. Planning permission is unlikely to be required for infrastructure or facilities, such as pontoons, which can be installed by the navigation authorities (or their lessees) on operational land using their respective permitted development rights.

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use
As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence.
The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

 

3.1.3 Need for planning permission for “Change of Use” of the mooring or the type of vessel/structure
From the above principles it can be seen that the following are likely to amount to a material change of use:
 a change in the use of a mooring from use of a vessel for leisure purposes to use of a vessel for residential purposes (that is the vessel being used by the occupants as their sole or main place of residence);
 the replacement of a vessel at a mooring with a purpose built structure, floating or otherwise (e.g. the replacement of a vessel with a pontoon mounted caravan or prefabricated building);
 a change from static houseboats or floating platforms used by the occupants for holiday purposes to being used by the occupants as their main place of residence. (Refer back to section 3.1.2 for further clarification).
However, where planning permission has been granted for the residential use of a mooring (i.e. use as a sole or main residence) and the vessel is replaced by one of similar style, length and breadth on the mooring, this will not normally constitute development and therefore no new planning permission will be required. On the other hand, if a small residential boat on a residential mooring was replaced by one twice as large, that could prompt the local planning authority to argue that either (i) the size of the planning unit had materially changed or (ii) that the nature and character of the use had changed through ‘intensification’.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Well I do have a bank account as I bank online and have been allocated a ‘number’ by the bank when I moved on to the boat as my address did not have a postcode. I also have a separate correspondence address. The banking isn’t a problem, it’s the registration I wish to sort out.

I have no planning permission as I do not own the land and quite rightly I pay no council tax as a narrowboat is not classed as a property as it is not on a residential mooring....we go round again.

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14 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?.

This is pretty much the same as buying a piece of land and just assuming you can build a house on it - you can't.

1 minute ago, paddler1 said:

I have no planning permission as I do not own the land and quite rightly I pay no council tax as a narrowboat is not classed as a property as it is not on a residential mooring....we go round again.

 

But the land owner is breaking the law by allowing a 'residence' on his land when there is no Planning Permission to allow it.

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed - but the ones that don't always seem to claim "unfair - why me ?"

I suppose things do seem unfair when a small minority get caughts when most don't.  The problem is that the planning system in not flexible or funded enough to take account of boat dwellers.  They aren't going to put resources into preventing people sleeping on boats are they?  So it's pretty difficult to enforce in practice.  Boaters themselves aren't empowered to apply for planning permission to live on their boats and most LAs don't have policies to cover it.  They could do though - they are legally required to have residential provision for gypsies, travellers and showpeople, with relaxed standards on residential site allocation.  So typically, over winter, showpeople live in caravan on patches of hardstanding in industrial areas and find it pretty easy to get residential permission for this, when there would be no chance of getting permission to build houses there or house of that size.  A similar approach could be taken with boaters, and it would be a really helpful, progressive move to do so.  It would also provided a route to council tax payers for many liveaboards, which is clearly in the interests of councils.

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20 minutes ago, paddler1 said:

Again, thanks for the reply but where has it ever been written that you can’t live on a boat that is moored on private landowners land?...I you have this to hand I would appreciate a link to this?...or is that just an unwritten rule because believe me, I have looked. I appreciate that the councils my not have thought to include us but we shouldn’t be ignored either.

im not planning to upset my applecart either but would like to stay informed on the pros and cons....this come about really s I wanted to do a credit check on myself and could not proceed without a postcode so these things are all connected..has anyone managed to do this I wonder?

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/9/change_of_use

 

In the use classes order, a non-residential mooring and a residential mooring are both in the planning use class 'sui generis', this can lead to a misunderstanding that no planning permission is needed for a change from one to another.  This is not so.  The sui generis use class is a catch-all for any use which doesn't fit into a clear use class and any change of use from sui generis or to sui generis requires permission.  The fact that it is private land has nothing to do with it.  You're only likely to have a problem though if the council finds out accidentally or someone reports you.  It also remains the case that you are benefitting from services paid for out of council tax and (presumably) you aren't paying it.  That's not a direct criticism, since there's no mechanism to allow you to pay it.

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Good to have ll the replies and I’m glad I shook the tree.

to recap I think you are basically saying that even though I have lived there for over ten years I probably shouldn’t have been doing as the owner of the land does not have permission for ‘residential’ moorings’ so if I want to keep the worms in the can I should just carry on and say nowt to anyone...I get it.

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