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Sailaway or Knacker?


gpspadi

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Hi all,

 

My first post after doing a bit of reading. Not had too much success with the search thingy.

 

Not lived on a narrow boat, but have lived on small and large yachts abroad, every thing from supery achts to Thai trawlers.

 

Not a mechanic or carpenter but reasonably skilled at DIY (Well maybe - I took 3 years to make an egg stand at school:)

 

My provisional budget is £40k plus another £5k war chest. Then money spent as and when earned. Self employed can run business from the boat, part time. Due to the nature of my business, location is not important. I will be CC. I want a 57-60' live aboard

 

The ideal solution for my needs would be a 60' lined sail away with first fix plumbing and electrics, but is a little out or my price range and time frame. I want to be on the water for around september 2020.

 

If I buy a ready built spray foamed sailaway, everything I've seen so far has the windows. bulkheads etc in the wrong places which means a compromised boat. I can handle the camping aspect, but don't really want to do a full fit out from the towpath especially since my DIY skills are not brilliant, although I am up for the challenge and confident I could do it given the time and resources. It's really the depreciation and added cost of a brand new fit out, and time, that bothers me.

 

So now I'm thinking buy a used boat for around £25k - £30k that I can move onto straight away with a solid hull, engine and gearbox, liveable but requiring a light refit along the way and maybe spending £5k-£10k retrofitting upgrades from the pro's some 6 month's in, when I know what I really want Vs what I think I want.

 

Red wines taking hold now, as I'm rambling and have lost the point of my post

 

Hopefully over the next couple of weeks, you chaps can help me work through my plans

 

My first lesson is don't open the wine before posting:)

 

 

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Look for something in the upper end of your price bracket that meets most of your needs and do it up over time. You'll probably live with it for quite some time before changing anything.

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23 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Look for something in the upper end of your price bracket that meets most of your needs and do it up over time. You'll probably live with it for quite some time before changing anything.

I completely agree. 45k is enough to buy a very reasonable boat not very old in good serviceable order from day one. 

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Hi gpspadi,

 

So much of this is just where I am at too! 

 

Same kind of budget and same types of boat choices, although I'm thinking more around a 50' .

 

I am 6'2" so also need to watch the internal height!

 

I have however done a huge amount of carpentry, kitchen fitting, house refits and three panel van to camper van conversions though, so the sailaway option is where my research is at the moment (I appreciate that narrowboats aren't the same as houses and vans, but I'm just saying that I'm reasonably "handy" and also set up with all the gear and used to the routine of long hard physical working days).

 

…...However, like yourself, if the right £25-£30K boat came along then that is really interesting as it would mean I'm afloat this year rather than next!

 

I think I have decided that its either a £25-£30K boat and spend a bit on it as I go (and maybe do a sailaway in the future), OR a sailaway now.

 

I just don't seem to be drawn or tempted into spending £45-£50K on a boat even though my overall budget is about that, as I am fairly sure I would pull the boat interior apart anyway! 

 

I guess the  challenge is finding a £25-£30K boat with a sound hull, engine and gearbox. I'm not sure if this is correct (and just the state of my own probably poor research), but there are a few ex-hire boats that come in the £25-£30K bracket and for me personally I would probably need a stove and solar fitting almost from the off. It seems that decent stoves and flues are just shy of £1000 in total and a decent solar set up is again about another £1000 - but again, I may be wrong on both of those prices, I'm just trying to suss it all out myself.

 

I was recommended to pop over to Wilton Marina - and am going to do just that in the next few weeks.

 

I promise not to hog your thread gpspadi ( ! )  but I  will be interested to see what some of the experienced members of this forum might have to say.

 

Oh, and I wish you all the very best in your hunting for a boat. I hope you keep this thread going and share it with us. 

 

Good luck!

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I completely agree. 45k is enough to buy a very reasonable boat not very old in good serviceable order from day one. 

OK - I appreciate this nudge in the direction I wasn't currently thinking of! I will also look at this price bracket too. I guess I need to see some boats!

 

Thank you !

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I bought a 57ft boat under £40K, essentially a good boat, but needing updating'

I am going to have most things sorted, safe, comfy and quite a bit smarter  fairly soon,  it has taken a year [1-2 days per week, maybe] and cost about £4K, though I do most of the work [painting, upholstery, maintenance, woodwork myself].

I will have paid about £1000 in labour as I wanted to change the systems to move to a reliance on solar eight months of the year.

Everything takes twice as long and costs twice as much as your first estimate.

I have found it difficult to find really good "tradesmen", who can both advise, and do the job efficiently, but I have found them, eventually.

Edited by LadyG
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Thanks for all the replys.

 

£25k-£30k boat are old shells with outdated interiors, old plumbing and old wiring. If replacing all that, then you might as well do it on a new sailaway. I dare say it would  be cheaper and easier/quicker than stripping and refurbishing the old shell. So that means a new sailaway at £35k + which is towards the top end of budget and a non starter time wise. But an old shell sailaway would have to be £15k-£20k to be financially viable and still a compromised boat.

 

I think writing this out, I've just convinced myself to buy an old boat at the top of my budget around £40k with £5k+ refit and repair budget as suggested.

 

This caught my eye, but sold rather quickly.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=630256

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6 minutes ago, gpspadi said:

 

 

This caught my eye, but sold rather quickly.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=630256

It does give you an idea of what you can get for your money - in this case an oldish boat from a very respected builder, with an almost-vintage engine and, despite the sellers amusing claim of "£000s spent recently", well maintained.

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5 minutes ago, gpspadi said:

This caught my eye, but sold rather quickly.

ANY good boat competitively priced will sell in days - "Snooze and you loose"

 

When you start thinking is it the one, or, I'll need to change the curtains, or what about ………… than it will be sold from under you.

If it is in poor condition or overpriced it will sit there for years.

 

 

Have your cash in a carrier bag, be ready to 'drop everything' and go and see / hand over cash / buy  before anyone else gets there.

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Not sure that's particularly good advice Alan? Just hand over your cash in a carrier bag?

 

Anyway going back to earlier posts, I don't care how good anyone's DIY skills are or how vast their array of tools happens to be; fitting out a sailaway or refitting an old boat on the towpath while living aboard and CCing Is not much fun and without a generator is pretty difficult. Don't underestimate the time it will take and the money you will spend.

Edited by blackrose
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A detail:  When I bought my sailaway, I got to choose the number, size, and positioning of the 7 windows I wanted in my 60ft boat, and the square cruiser stern that I also wanted, amongst other things.

14 hours ago, gpspadi said:

If I buy a ready built spray foamed sailaway, everything I've seen so far has the windows. bulkheads etc in the wrong places which means a compromised boat.

 

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52 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Not sure that's particularly good advice Alan? Just hand over your cash in a carrier bag?

 

Anyway going back to earlier posts, I don't care how good anyone's DIY skills are or how vast their array of tools happens to be; fitting out a sailaway or refitting an old boat on the towpath while living aboard and CCing Is not much fun and without a generator is pretty difficult. Don't underestimate the time it will take and the money you will spend.

See Journey with Jono, three years in to his sailaway. He took two years to get it in to a paint shed, then a lot of work to get rid of rust, I know painting outdoors is a problem unless you get ten days of warm dry calm weather, else you have to keep sanding surface 'cos previous coat has cured, and won't accept next topcoat. Coatings are very important on a steel boat, mine is over 15 years old, yet has almost no rust, I have seen boats three years old, where the waterline is raw metal, so if getting a sailaway, my advice is to get a good one, pay for a good paint job, no castles and roses, just good two pack paint applied properly in a controlled environment. Three solid weeks work, a huge wad of cash, and a lot of dust. You need proper personal protection, I use 3M stuff.

Colin Jaques [youtube] also fitted out his own boat, had all skills, tools, and his own workshop, he got someone to do the wiring loom, and made very few changes as he went, probably due to narrowboat experience.

I think I would rather find a user friendly boatyard and fit it out in summer on dry land, with power, and have most stuff delivered.

Get the basics right.

Edited by LadyG
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9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Not sure that's particularly good advice Alan? Just hand over your cash in a carrier bag?

Well. it is only in exchange for the boat keys.

 

It has worked for me on a number of occasions, an Aldi (other brands available) carrier bag with a load of notes inside is a powerful negotiating tool. 

 

I was looking down the NB listings on Apollo Duck when a 'new one 'popped up' which looked a good buy so gave the guy a call and arranged to meet up in 3 hours time (that was the time to drive to Preston Brook from home.

 

We (SWMBO & I) jumped in the car and off we set, got there, looked, negotiated the price and did the deal.

The boat still had all his 'stuff' on board so gave him an hour to clear it off whilst we went to the pub for lunch.

Went back, handed over the cash, wife took the car home and I set off in the boat.

Took me 10 days to get home.

 

Sold it 2 years later for more than I paid for it. 

Sold it two days (over Christmas) Young couple bought it and when the weather allowed set off down to London with plans to liveaboard.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

ANY good boat competitively priced will sell in days - "Snooze and you loose"

 

When you start thinking is it the one, or, I'll need to change the curtains, or what about ………… than it will be sold from under you.

If it is in poor condition or overpriced it will sit there for years.

 

 

Have your cash in a carrier bag, be ready to 'drop everything' and go and see / hand over cash / buy  before anyone else gets there.

Yep I agree. Some people poo poo the cash in a carrier bag method but I have done it twice and on other occasions done bank transfer in minutes of arriving. Cash still speaks volumes as it is real, instant tangible money. You must of course not be averse to taking a risk without survey. My present boat was well priced anyway but I first saw it at 11am and paid by bank transfer at 1120. This move got me 13k off the asking price, much more than paying for a survey and hoping to get money off after the usual silly  argy bargy nonsense. 

Edited by mrsmelly
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The Journey with Jono vids are what turned me on and then off the idea of a sail away DIY fit out on the move.

 

So a 60' at £40k looking primarily for a good hull and engine with reasonable electrics and plumbing. What should I be looking at? newer owner fit outs, ex hire boats, or older yard fit outs. I guess all of the above is the answer. Amazing how just writing this all down is consolidating my thoughts.

 

I wont be buying untill around September this year, but could do with some reassurance I'm thinking about the right sort of boat. This for example.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=614141

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2 minutes ago, gpspadi said:

The Journey with Jono vids are what turned me on and then off the idea of a sail away DIY fit out on the move.

 

So a 60' at £40k looking primarily for a good hull and engine with reasonable electrics and plumbing. What should I be looking at? newer owner fit outs, ex hire boats, or older yard fit outs. I guess all of the above is the answer. Amazing how just writing this all down is consolidating my thoughts.

 

I wont be buying untill around September this year, but could do with some reassurance I'm thinking about the right sort of boat. This for example.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=614141

Are you only looking at this overpriced length of boat? Unless you intend cruising a tiny bit of the system across the pennines and North then you can buy a whole boat for similar money and believe me the xtra space for living aboard is very very nice to have. Just sayin like. 

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2 hours ago, gpspadi said:

Thanks for all the replys.

 

£25k-£30k boat are old shells with outdated interiors, old plumbing and old wiring. If replacing all that, then you might as well do it on a new sailaway. I dare say it would  be cheaper and easier/quicker than stripping and refurbishing the old shell. So that means a new sailaway at £35k + which is towards the top end of budget and a non starter time wise. But an old shell sailaway would have to be £15k-£20k to be financially viable and still a compromised boat.

 

I think writing this out, I've just convinced myself to buy an old boat at the top of my budget around £40k with £5k+ refit and repair budget as suggested.

 

This caught my eye, but sold rather quickly.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=630256

That's a nice boat, priced to sell, you have to be ready to strike quickly as, surprise, surprise there are quite a few people looking for the same thing. When I was buying, I had very little time available, and had to cull my list of a dozen boats scattered far and wide, down to two close to each other, one was dodgy ownership,  so list was halved again!

 I think I was put off The Wilton Experience because of the difficulty / delay / risk of failure due to surveying, good surveyors are not avalable at a moment's notice.

Edited by LadyG
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I would buy an old heap but ONLY if it was what I wanted, of historical interest, a definite bargain or something quite unique. Apart from that it would be a new shell, no bulkheads, tanks, engine bearers, or somebody else's bright ideas to sort out. I've fitted out on the towpath before, its awkward but keep it tidy and a small genny (even if it can just charge cordless tools) is needed. Also it will take at the very least 12 months so it gives you time to get stuff from E Bay , boat jumbles and other places to avoid the expensive places. You need doors and windows ready to fit at once otherwise stuff will vanish and the boat will fill up with rainwater. You also need to be ruthlessly organised. Pretend you are doing it for a customer so no short cuts or bodges or days off. Every spare minute you need to be sourcing stuff, making stuff at home in the shed if you have one or thinking of ways of getting everything from ballast to paint. Its hard work and all consuming. In fact I've no idea why I have spent big chunks of my life doing it when I could have been having fun with sex n' drugs n' rock and roll. What a waste.

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32 minutes ago, gpspadi said:

The Journey with Jono vids are what turned me on and then off the idea of a sail away DIY fit out on the move.

 

So a 60' at £40k looking primarily for a good hull and engine with reasonable electrics and plumbing. What should I be looking at? newer owner fit outs, ex hire boats, or older yard fit outs. I guess all of the above is the answer. Amazing how just writing this all down is consolidating my thoughts.

 

I wont be buying untill around September this year, but could do with some reassurance I'm thinking about the right sort of boat. This for example.

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=614141

Personally that one , for me has too many cons.

pros

good engine clean and dry engine hole [does it ever go anywhere]

recent BSC

squirrel stove [can't see installation of same, lack of effort is evident elsewhere in this NB]

covered waggon at the stern

somebody bought it, so you might be able to sell it ...

cons

aesthetics [pram hood]

designed to be attached to the shoreline

builder reputation variable, survey essential

if you want a tiled bathroom, try harder

saloon has all the charm of a 1970's station waiting room

58 foot

Edited by LadyG
apologies to owner, it's just not for me!
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I won't bother listing pros.

 

Cons:

Heating - it is a corridor, like all narrowboats. Some spaces closed off. Single source of heat in one room. That simply won't spread to the other areas. You'll end up with the area nearest the stove at 28C in winter - and the bathroom+bedroom will still be freezing.

Electric - numerous power-240V-hungry devices. Even the toilet needs electrikery to flush. It is a boat designed to be plugged into a shoreline. Fine, if you are going to live connected to a shoreline. 

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15 hours ago, gpspadi said:

Hi all,

 

My first post after doing a bit of reading. Not had too much success with the search thingy.

 

Not lived on a narrow boat, but have lived on small and large yachts abroad, every thing from supery achts to Thai trawlers.

 

Not a mechanic or carpenter but reasonably skilled at DIY (Well maybe - I took 3 years to make an egg stand at school:)

 

My provisional budget is £40k plus another £5k war chest. Then money spent as and when earned. Self employed can run business from the boat, part time. Due to the nature of my business, location is not important. I will be CC. I want a 57-60' live aboard

 

The ideal solution for my needs would be a 60' lined sail away with first fix plumbing and electrics, but is a little out or my price range and time frame. I want to be on the water for around september 2020.

 

If I buy a ready built spray foamed sailaway, everything I've seen so far has the windows. bulkheads etc in the wrong places which means a compromised boat. I can handle the camping aspect, but don't really want to do a full fit out from the towpath especially since my DIY skills are not brilliant, although I am up for the challenge and confident I could do it given the time and resources. It's really the depreciation and added cost of a brand new fit out, and time, that bothers me.

 

So now I'm thinking buy a used boat for around £25k - £30k that I can move onto straight away with a solid hull, engine and gearbox, liveable but requiring a light refit along the way and maybe spending £5k-£10k retrofitting upgrades from the pro's some 6 month's in, when I know what I really want Vs what I think I want.

 

Red wines taking hold now, as I'm rambling and have lost the point of my post

 

Hopefully over the next couple of weeks, you chaps can help me work through my plans

 

My first lesson is don't open the wine before posting:)

 

 

Go and talk to someone like Nick Thorpe http://www.nickthorpeboatbuilding.com/index.asp having used the tools on his website to design exactly what you want. That way the windows etc will be where you want them and you will have a superb vessel that comes in within your budget

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The length question.

 

I know I've fallen into the newbie trap here at 60'. Only because I know its a go anywhere length. Obviously longer the better for living on full time.

 

But to tie down that answer I need to find out what areas are restricted to what lengths. So if anyone has a definitive list or knows where I should look, i'd appreciate the pointer. The question has been bugging me for awhile now.

 

Seen the Nick Thorpe site. As stated though fitting out a sailaway while on the move really is not feasible for my own circumstances. Any work I would be doing to a boats electrics, plumbing, exterior painting etc I would do out of the water at blacking time, renting hard standing for a month or two at most.

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8 minutes ago, gpspadi said:

 

I know I've fallen into the newbie trap here at 60'. Only because I know its a go anywhere length. Obviously longer the better for living on full time.

60' is a struggle to 'go anywhere'. 58' is about the maximum for comfortable cruising.

Apart from a couple of locations in the Fens (Lode End and Brandon locks) a 70 ft narrow boat can go anywhere in the South and Midlands, but you won't be able to do the Leeds and Liverpool east of Wigan, the Rufford Branch and Ribble Link, the Calder & Hebble, Huddersfield Broad or up to Sheffield. A few other bits of Yorkshire also. 

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