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Tim Lewis

Another Red Diesel Threat

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46 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The document says the exchequer impact is zero, suggesting they expect the same overall propulsion/non propulsion use split as at present.

 

I think the only way this would work is for the 60/40 duty split to be applied at the marina pump price  with no negotiation . That might  make it about the same price at the marina pump  as  supermarket white diesel  (within a few pence per litre ). So there is no incentive to lug fuel in Jerry cans from the supermarket and no incentive to abuse the system.

 

It would cut out the possibility of claiming 100% domestic use on white diesel. For those who do genuinely use 100% domestic they may have no engine and  use red diesel. Or have  a dedicated tank for the heater .

 

I agree a good thing is taking a boat abroad will no longer have an issue with the colour of the fuel , At least not after the red stain has significantly diminished.

 

 

 

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My prediction is that Marinas wont stock red diesel, only white will be available, and it will be full price take it or leave it! Or thats what Tulley said yeaterday, not that he sells it anymore as it was a pointless return on his investment

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28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My prediction is that Marinas wont stock red diesel, only white will be available, and it will be full price take it or leave it! Or thats what Tulley said yeaterday, not that he sells it anymore as it was a pointless return on his investment

Depending on what the government say on single tank installations I think you may well be right

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52 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My prediction is that Marinas wont stock red diesel, only white will be available, and it will be full price take it or leave it! Or thats what Tulley said yeaterday, not that he sells it anymore as it was a pointless return on his investment

I think right now I would take that, it could get a lot worse than that.

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

My prediction is that Marinas wont stock red diesel, only white will be available, and it will be full price take it or leave it! Or thats what Tulley said yeaterday, not that he sells it anymore as it was a pointless return on his investment

 

My reading of the dicument is that boatyards that currently supply only red will in future sell only white - so no change to pumps, tanks etc. (unless they want to sell red and white in future). So yes, buy at full duty price, but then some sort of rebate scheme to bring down the overall cost to the same as under the present system. The devil of that will be in the detail! 

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On 08/03/2020 at 20:53, peterboat said:

And you have hit the nail on the head !

 

This is me in my Mahindra XUV500 AWD at over 18,000 ft above sea level, night stopped at 16,000 ft ASL she started 1st turn after a night of -2deg C. After putting on scales 2560 kgs max allowed 2600 so at max weight the engine 2.2 lt turbo common rail diesel. Whish I could get one in UK cost £17000 on the road new in Goa. life a bit slower now on a 57ft, however back home to Goa on Monday for a few months so Indian driving head to be installed. lol.

2003033582_Khardunglatopincar.JPG.7abc1e01b1167ac9b56eecbf54db836a.JPG

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18 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

My reading of the dicument is that boatyards that currently supply only red will in future sell only white - so no change to pumps, tanks etc. (unless they want to sell red and white in future). So yes, buy at full duty price, but then some sort of rebate scheme to bring down the overall cost to the same as under the present system. The devil of that will be in the detail! 

My prediction is that we'll see a lot more jerry cans being taken down the towpath.

A canalside retailer won't have anywhere near the fuel turnover of a roadside fuel supplier and will therefore be paying a higher wholesale price (and that's ignoring the supermarket fuel)

I would guess that even if a canalside retailer sold the fuel at cost without making a penny they would still be more expensive than the nearest garage.

I expect to see canal diesel prices at around 20 - 30p per litre more expensive than forecourt prices making lugging 5 jerry cans to save £20 - £30 a viable proposition.

The decider will be how any rebate scheme operates, if it ends up as submit receipts for diesel from anywhere declaring that it went in the boat then I expect that over time the canalside retailers will slowly vanish (partly because of not being able to compete on price but also because their tanks that now contain white diesel are now a more tempting target for thieves)

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When we stopped to fill up last March at a decent sized urban boatyard we were the first boat the proprietor had dealt with that season. I was worried that the fuel might be old but he reassured me saying that he said that he sold lots of red every week into the backs of vans for contractors of one type or another. Clearly that trade is now going to be lost to the likes of Tesco and will have a detrimental effect on his businesses viability. 

 

Some of that loss might be recouped by jacking the price up. People who are advocating buying from a garage clearly haven't tried to carry a full jerrycan. They are heavy. Personally I can only see it happening on a very limited scale. It's just not worth the reward.

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38 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

When we stopped to fill up last March at a decent sized urban boatyard we were the first boat the proprietor had dealt with that season. I was worried that the fuel might be old but he reassured me saying that he said that he sold lots of red every week into the backs of vans for contractors of one type or another. Clearly that trade is now going to be lost to the likes of Tesco and will have a detrimental effect on his businesses viability. 

 

Some of that loss might be recouped by jacking the price up. People who are advocating buying from a garage clearly haven't tried to carry a full jerrycan. They are heavy. Personally I can only see it happening on a very limited scale. It's just not worth the reward.

Its going to contractors and the like and often going into the cars and vans! I have serviced a few jags that have had red in the fuel filters, I was talking to a lad that works on a building site and he is devastated that red is going

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On 08/03/2020 at 08:19, LadyG said:

It could be on a separate metre to the marina, of course, it costs 15p per unit.

I think I pay 2p per unit for admin/infratructure of the supply. There is a £50 deposit as well ...... money in Marina coffers, not mine.

It was cheaper before metrication when it came by the yard☺️

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On 13/03/2020 at 09:33, Jess-- said:

 

The decider will be how any rebate scheme operates

Reading between the lines I  am guessing  the 60/40 split will remain for diesel supplied at the waterside but the fuel will be white.  So the pump price will be not far of supermarket prices .

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Reading between the lines I  am guessing  the 60/40 split will remain for diesel supplied at the waterside but the fuel will be white.  So the pump price will be not far of supermarket prices .

 

 

Just can't see them doing it! To much would end up in cars, Van's, lorries and buses! You will have to  claim it back using forms in triplicate filled out in blood and proof of hours done with CRT sightings and a copy of your license 😎

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28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Just can't see them doing it! To much would end up in cars, Van's, lorries and buses! You will have to  claim it back using forms in triplicate filled out in blood and proof of hours done with CRT sightings and a copy of your license 😎

 

Perhaps make it the 75/25  split or whatever makes  the price at the water side the same or a few pence different  to  supermarket prices and no one would have any reason to cheat the system.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

Perhaps make it the 75/25  split or whatever makes  the price at the water side the same or a few pence different  to  supermarket prices and no one would have any reason to cheat the system.

 

 

 

Unscrupulous vendors will sell it on the bank ! It already happened with red so cheap white would be a bonus 

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2 hours ago, Ferd said:

It was cheaper before metrication when it came by the yard☺️

 

That's because there are only 36 inches in a yard and 39 inches in a metre! 😁🤣😂

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16 hours ago, peterboat said:

Unscrupulous vendors will sell it on the bank ! It already happened with red so cheap white would be a bonus 

As I understand it, the price to the retailer is highly dependent on volumes and few boatyards can compete with supermarkets. OTOH, roadside stations seem to charge on the basis of traffic volumes.

 

Not that long ago we discovered that two canalside diesel sellers (jointly owned) sold at markedly different prices, based, so they told us, solely on the basis that one had a much larger tank than the other.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

As I understand it, the price to the retailer is highly dependent on volumes and few boatyards can compete with supermarkets. OTOH, roadside stations seem to charge on the basis of traffic volumes.

 

Not that long ago we discovered that two canalside diesel sellers (jointly owned) sold at markedly different prices, based, so they told us, solely on the basis that one had a much larger tank than the other.

It is so if an unscrupulous marina owner pushes up his sales by selling on the bank he will get a better price won't he?

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51 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It is so if an unscrupulous marina owner pushes up his sales by selling on the bank he will get a better price won't he?

What's unscrupulous? Or are you not a fan of 'the market'? (which, supposedly, determines price on the basis of demand not cost)

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

It is so if an unscrupulous marina owner pushes up his sales by selling on the bank he will get a better price won't he?

Surely that only applies if the marina owner can sell it for a better price. I thought the whole idea of the Governments response was to eliminate that possibility by onl allowing us to buy white (in most cases).

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11 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

Surely that only applies if the marina owner can sell it for a better price. I thought the whole idea of the Governments response was to eliminate that possibility by onl allowing us to buy white (in most cases).

Many of the local 'petrol' stations around us sell 'Red Diesel'.

One enterprising garage has put on a much extended delivery hose that reaches from the roadside pump all the way down the bank to the River.

His sales to boats are ancillary to, and in addition to, his roadside sales.

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41 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

What's unscrupulous? Or are you not a fan of 'the market'? (which, supposedly, determines price on the basis of demand not cost)

Do you believe that red diesel sold on the bank only goes in none road going uses? Because I know different having serviced cats that are using red diesel on the road! Now if marinas are allowed to self declare white diesel the market for it will be large very large and the excise teams won't be able to prove it isn't full duty paid.  Which is why it won't happen,  it will up to boaters to prove and claim an amount back 

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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Many of the local 'petrol' stations around us sell 'Red Diesel'.

One enterprising garage has put on a much extended delivery hose that reaches from the roadside pump all the way down the bank to the River.

His sales to boats are ancillary to, and in addition to, his roadside sales.

The best know one is Turners at Wheaton Aston  but when he can't supply plant from his roadside pump will he supply boats and will the price be just as goot

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

The best know one is Turners at Wheaton Aston  but when he can't supply plant from his roadside pump will he supply boats and will the price be just as goot

Will he be able to buy it is the question?

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34 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Will he be able to buy it is the question?

He suppliers a lot of farmers who will be authorised to use it.

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