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Another Red Diesel Threat


Tim Lewis

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

Reading the last post looks like you wont be able to buy it for your unit, when I used to buy it for the business it got very difficult soon as I changed to kero the difficulties disappeared! Do you know that you only have to add a small amount of two stroke oil to kero to make it fit for diesel engines? thats the old types like boats run, not advised for common rail units, and you can buy blue two stroke oil so no red dye ?

We used to run festival sites...never a problem with 10,000 litres at a time into multiple bulk tanks. 

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8 minutes ago, frangar said:

We used to run festival sites...never a problem with 10,000 litres at a time into multiple bulk tanks. 

It might be a problem now though, and it was when they discovered my tank was near the marina [marina yard to be exact] I moved it from the business when I sold it

Edited by peterboat
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36 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

The government should be following Sweden's lead:

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2019/09/10/speedy-fuels-wants-tax-break-for-biofuels

 

Keith

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but isn't there a problem that if the world as a whole changes over to biodiesel, the land take required to grow the feedstock will mean that poor people will have to starve because the land is more valuable making road fuel?

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3 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I stand to be corrected, but isn't there a problem that if the world as a whole changes over to biodiesel, the land take required to grow the feedstock will mean that poor people will have to starve because the land is more valuable making road fuel?

Does Bio diesel add to the CO2

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30 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I stand to be corrected, but isn't there a problem that if the world as a whole changes over to biodiesel, the land take required to grow the feedstock will mean that poor people will have to starve because the land is more valuable making road fuel?

https://www.ofimagazine.com/content-images/backgrounders/HVO2.pdf

 

Keith

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39 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Does Bio diesel add to the CO2

At the time it is actually burned, yes it does.  However, it uses the same methodology as biomass for electricity generation in that the replacement raw material uses up CO2 when growing and takes it back again.

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26 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

They are looking at a world production this year of 4 million tonnes.  Current world consumption of fuel oils is 100 million barrels per day.

 

HVO seems to be relying on waste and residue oils for its feedstock. This is totally unsustainable if expansion is to even scratch the surface of world demand and massive use of land currently used for food will be required.

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44 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

They are looking at a world production this year of 4 million tonnes.  Current world consumption of fuel oils is 100 million barrels per day.

 

HVO seems to be relying on waste and residue oils for its feedstock. This is totally unsustainable if expansion is to even scratch the surface of world demand and massive use of land currently used for food will be required.

I use bio diesel and have done for years slightly poorer fuel consumption strange smell but quieter engine, as its waste vegetable oil I am happy with using it

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24 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

This may not be as bad as it seems, reading between the lines here, it sounds as if the plan might be that we all have to use white but then can claim back the duty for fuel used for domestic use. Of course this does mean we will need to front the higher cost, but will get the money back. The devil of course will be in the detail.

Edited by Ace of Spades
To correct typo
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9 minutes ago, Ace of Spades said:

This may not be as bad as it seems, reading between the lines here, it sounds as if the plan might be that we all have to use white but then can claim back the duty for fuel used for domestic use. Of course this does mean we will need to front the higher cost, but will get the money back. The devil of course will be in the detail.

It does not say domestic use in general, it more specific relating to heating (ie not electricity generation).  So for example we have a solid fuel stove and gas central heat8ng, so it may be that we have no rebate so it becomes 100% propulsion.  At the end of the day it probably means an additional couple of hundred pounds a years over what we pay with the correct split that based on propulsion/non-propulsion.  
 

Personally I am more concerned by that impact this may have on canal side supplies.  I certainly don’t want to have to be using cans from petrol stations, but I fear some boaters may go that route and make the canal side outlets non-viable.

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22 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It does not say domestic use in general, it more specific relating to heating (ie not electricity generation).  So for example we have a solid fuel stove and gas central heat8ng, so it may be that we have no rebate so it becomes 100% propulsion.  At the end of the day it probably means an additional couple of hundred pounds a years over what we pay with the correct split that based on propulsion/non-propulsion.  
 

Personally I am more concerned by that impact this may have on canal side supplies.  I certainly don’t want to have to be using cans from petrol stations, but I fear some boaters may go that route and make the canal side outlets non-viable.

Yes......

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32 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It does not say domestic use in general, it more specific relating to heating (ie not electricity generation).  So for example we have a solid fuel stove and gas central heat8ng, so it may be that we have no rebate so it becomes 100% propulsion.  At the end of the day it probably means an additional couple of hundred pounds a years over what we pay with the correct split that based on propulsion/non-propulsion.  
 

Personally I am more concerned by that impact this may have on canal side supplies.  I certainly don’t want to have to be using cans from petrol stations, but I fear some boaters may go that route and make the canal side outlets non-viable.

Indeed, as I say, devil certainly in the detail. If my supposition is correct however and if suppliers switch to white (both big ifs I admit) then prices may fall as the general diesel market has a greater need for white over all, hence wholesale prices are lower, once duty is reclaimed and if (there I am with that if again) supplier pass this on, then prices could actually drop

Edited by Ace of Spades
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32 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Personally I am more concerned by that impact this may have on canal side supplies.  I certainly don’t want to have to be using cans from petrol stations, but I fear some boaters may go that route and make the canal side outlets non-viable.

Yes and no.  It's already possible to get red diesel in drums far cheaper than canalside, and some but not all boaters do, presumably "forgetting" to declare the split.  

 

If we end up at Tesco diesel prices + 20p or so pumped into the boat I can't see that many bothering to load smelly diesel jerrycans into their cars for the extra tenner a topup.

 

Last year we saw canalside red at prices ranging from 65ppl to 120ppl domestic rate, so it all depends on what the local market will bear - it's still much handier to get it pumped straight into your boat than mess about. 

7 minutes ago, Ace of Spades said:

prices may fall as the general diesel market has a greater need for white over all, hence wholesale prices are lower

 

Nope.  The same tank at the refinery supplies both white and red diesel, the only price difference is the tracer addpack that goes in the tanker and the duty payable.  It's the same stuff.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Yes and no.  It's already possible to get red diesel in drums far cheaper than canalside, and some but not all boaters do, presumably "forgetting" to declare the split.  

 

If we end up at Tesco diesel prices + 20p or so pumped into the boat I can't see that many bothering to load smelly diesel jerrycans into their cars for the extra tenner a topup.

 

Last year we saw canalside red at prices ranging from 65ppl to 120ppl domestic rate, so it all depends on what the local market will bear - it's still much handier to get it pumped straight into your boat than mess about. 

 

I hope you are correct, but you have to search out red diesel suppliers, compared to the white supplier that you may well be visiting anyway to fill your car up, so people will fill up cans for the boat while that are at it and save a few quid over canal side prices.  I think the number doing this will be much greater than the number who currently seek out red diesel suppliers.  So its really a case of how many and if that makes canal side outlets not viable.

 

Under this ruling I presume that hire boats will count as pleasure craft, so the hire bases will still have (white) diesel, but they could take the view to have it only for their own use.

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6 hours ago, frangar said:

As the boys on the plant forums have said...the cost of HS2 has just shot up...the fuel costs for the plant will double. 

Its a government funded project and the extra duty goes back to the government.

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1 minute ago, john6767 said:

 

I hope you are correct, but you have to search out red diesel suppliers, compared to the white supplier that you may well be visiting anyway to fill your car up, so people will fill up cans for the boat while that are at it and save a few quid over canal side prices.  I think the number doing this will be much greater than the number who currently seek out red diesel suppliers.  So its really a case of how many and if that makes canal side outlets not viable.

 

Under this ruling I presume that hire boats will count as pleasure craft, so the hire bases will still have (white) diesel, but they could take the view to have it only for their own use.

Road side (White) diesel prices are all over the place, yesterday on the A55 it was 138.9 / litre, whilst just off the A55 at Bangor it was 118.9 /litre

 

Sticking 80 litres in the car at 20p / litre difference is £16  - filling the boat up (2800 litres) would be £560 difference

 

It depends on what the marina prices will end up being but I have a 1000 litre bowser that may end up being for boat use instead of farm use.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Road side (White) diesel prices are all over the place, yesterday on the A55 it was 138.9 / litre, whilst just off the A55 at Bangor it was 118.9 /litre

 

Sticking 80 litres in the car at 20p / litre difference is £16  - filling the boat up (2800 litres) would be £560 difference

 

It depends on what the marina prices will end up being but I have a 1000 litre bowser that may end up being for boat use instead of farm use.

Ah but your boats bigger than mine.  The most I would be putting in the boat is 150 litres or so (200 litre tank).  Don't think I ever put as much as 80 litres in the car, but I admit I don't know how big the tank is. 

 

As you say we will have to wait an see how it pans out.

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16 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Under this ruling I presume that hire boats will count as pleasure craft, so the hire bases will still have (white) diesel, but they could take the view to have it only for their own use.

Yes, pleasure craft duty rates for hire holiday boats.

 

Surely all the ones that take this view would already not be selling red to passing boaters anyway.

 

It's good for cashflow to be taking money off everyone who goes past if you can, and if they keep the same % markup on the white diesel and don't need new pumps or tanks I can't see why they would turn away the trade - there is actually less paperwork for selling only white than there is for selling only red.

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It depends on what the marina prices will end up being but I have a 1000 litre bowser that may end up being for boat use instead of farm use.

 

You could always get bulk tanker deliveries to the quayside again - it's been done before!

 

(Oh and that's actually an 899 litre bowser with a very generous expansion gap - wink wink)

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Not the outcome  from the budget I had expected . I thought we would get to keep red fuel.

 

I am assuming marinas will need to change to white  well before the proposed change comes into force  so as to be sure the white diesel is not tainted with red dye.
I hope the HMRC will recognise that the fuel in some boat tanks will be tainted with red dye for some time after the change to white diesel.

 

It would seem possible  a system will be in place to claim back the extra duty on fuel used for a heater. However I  don't see how that would work. In practice the white diesel in a boat tank can only be with full duty paid.

People who do have a tank only for heating will be able to use red for the heating.

 

.

 

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13 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

You could always get bulk tanker deliveries to the quayside again - it's been done before!

 

Yup - we had to do that on the IoM when the sailing club didn't have enough 'to spare' to fill us up.

 

 

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

(Oh and that's actually an 899 litre bowser with a very generous expansion gap - wink wink)

 

Yup - I normally manage to get 1000 litres in it even with a bit left in the bottom and a bit of expansion room left.

It is a 110% bunded bowser.

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2 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

 

Thats interesting. The change for pleasure boaters is coming about as a result of the need to comply with the European Court ruling, and is not (directly) related to the ending of red diesel for uses like construction equipment.  So we will all be using white diesel from a date yet to be announced, but almost certainly well before the 2 years for other uses - the document refers to the need to comply with the EU rules for the Brexit transition period i.e the rest of this year. So my guess is boatyards will be using white for the next refill of their tanks.

Suppliers will no longer have to keep records of the proportion sold for propulsion. So for most suppliers it is simply a matter of refilling their tanks with white when the new rules come in, and no change to tanks, pumps and related equipment, unless they wish to supply both white to pleasure boats and red to commercial craft - not an issue for most canalside suppliers. I guess the fuel boats (as commercial craft) will just buy a drum of red for their own propulsion use, and fill the main tanks with white for their customers.

Having white diesel in the tanks satisfies the EU, and avoids the border issues faced by those whose boats travel between the UK and EU waterways. And we will still get a rebate on heating use, by a mechanism yet to be announced- presumably some sort of rebate scheme. The document says the exchequer impact is zero, suggesting they expect the same overall propulsion/non propulsion use split as at present.

I think this is a pretty good outcome for us.

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