Jump to content

Another Red Diesel Threat


Tim Lewis

Featured Posts

24 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Is aviation fuel tax free?

 

How about taxing that instead or if it is already taxed ramping the rate up.

 

Commercial aviation fuel is free of all tax by international treaty.  Airlines do not even pay the rebated duty that railways pay on their diesel fuel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Commercial aviation fuel is free of all tax by international treaty.  Airlines do not even pay the rebated duty that railways pay on their diesel fuel.

That is wrong - I mean morally, not factually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I have named one close to my heart which is destined to cost the UK £millions if we remain tied to the club.  That's all you are getting.  I don't dance to your puppet strings.

I was unclear which was the one EU regulation that you identified. Looking back it seems that you were talking about rates of VAT. However, it seems to be a popular myth that VAT rates are set by the EU - no so and different rates are set by various EU countries, I believe. What is required is the use of VAT but it bis collected and determined nationally.

 

ow if you were intending to suggest that VAST be abandoned in favour of a return to something else - such as back to Purchase Tax - then I suspect you will face an uphill struggle to convince many experts (and others) that this is a good thing - not to mention the enormous cost of such a change. That's making a change for the sake of making a change, not because it is better. After all, we were gradually moving away from it before we joined the Common Market, as our economy moved away from goods to services.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

I was unclear which was the one EU regulation that you identified. Looking back it seems that you were talking about rates of VAT. However, it seems to be a popular myth that VAT rates are set by the EU - no so and different rates are set by various EU countries, I believe. What is required is the use of VAT but it bis collected and determined nationally.

 

ow if you were intending to suggest that VAST be abandoned in favour of a return to something else - such as back to Purchase Tax - then I suspect you will face an uphill struggle to convince many experts (and others) that this is a good thing - not to mention the enormous cost of such a change. That's making a change for the sake of making a change, not because it is better. After all, we were gradually moving away from it before we joined the Common Market, as our economy moved away from goods to services.

Yes... they obfuscate to confuse don't they? Unclear is the word!

 

Nope..... Smelly was the VAT bloke, and he merely didn't like the fact that we couldn't reduce it below 15%, even though we agreed to the law, and even though the chances of VAT being reduced below 15% are slim to nil.

 

I think furness's one thing was the ports directive, even though our MEPs voted for it ;) 

 

 

Edited by Richard10002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

I was unclear which was the one EU regulation that you identified. Looking back it seems that you were talking about rates of VAT. However, it seems to be a popular myth that VAT rates are set by the EU - no so and different rates are set by various EU countries, I believe. What is required is the use of VAT but it bis collected and determined nationally.

 

ow if you were intending to suggest that VAST be abandoned in favour of a return to something else - such as back to Purchase Tax - then I suspect you will face an uphill struggle to convince many experts (and others) that this is a good thing - not to mention the enormous cost of such a change. That's making a change for the sake of making a change, not because it is better. After all, we were gradually moving away from it before we joined the Common Market, as our economy moved away from goods to services.

I have never mentioned VAT.  Have a word with Richard.  He thinks he knows about my issue but as usual, he knows nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I have never mentioned VAT.  Have a word with Richard.  He thinks he knows about my issue but as usual, he knows nothing.

Crikey! Like I've said elsewhere, it's like the Time Cryptic Crossword!

 

Why don't you just tell the guy what it is, rather than obfuscating? Are you struggling with the words?

 

I would agree that I knew nothing about it when you first brought it up..... hence the questions in the first place. In the end it seems that our MEPs, (the people that we used to vote for in a democratic election), voted for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Commercial aviation fuel is free of all tax by international treaty.  Airlines do not even pay the rebated duty that railways pay on their diesel fuel.

It used to cause problems in the hot air ballooning industry since they run on propane (usually from calor) who insist on charging the duty and leaving the company to reclaim the duty from the Govt, confusing things even more was the fact that a lot of the road vehicles used by the balloon Co's were lpg fuelled (mainly because it's cheaper to run big 4x4's on lpg than any other fuel) which lead to monthly forms detailing how many litres were purchased (to claim the duty back), and how many litres were put into road vehicles (to pay a higher rate of duty)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

translation: I can't (name five) so I'll flounce.

 

I see he laughs at your post, but I can't see why.... He hasn't got 5, so could never named 5.... I don't know anybody who has. I'm only actually aware of 3, and that's from every Brexiteer that has cared to respond - most actually avoid the question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back on topic, I’m not sure actually how much this is different to the previous proposals. I’ve not got access to The Times article, but reading elsewhere, this seems to be basically what was in the Red Diesel Consultation that started in 2018, so I read it as, as we suspected the current system of using Red but self declaring will end, but it does state that “Red Diesel used for domestic purposes in a static situation will be unaffected”. The concern here is the “in static situations” part but again the consultation document make much more reference to business and industry. I suspect therefore as I’ve said, that the static bit aside, this is probably nothing more than we already knew. That theoretically (supply issues aside) a boat with 2 tanks could continue to use Red for domestic heating and power generation.

 

edited to add:

I know that even if I’m right, having to have 2 tanks means this is little consolation to most.

Edited by Ace of Spades
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

I see he laughs at your post, but I can't see why.... He hasn't got 5, so could never named 5.... I don't know anybody who has. I'm only actually aware of 3, and that's from every Brexiteer that has cared to respond - most actually avoid the question.

We are out, Brexit exists, it's done and dusted one way or another, so pretty please can we all stop the infighting and bickering and not mention Brexit again ?

Phil

  • Greenie 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this red diesel thing goes ahead surely it's a green light for anyone running a fuel boat. Just sell Gasoil to boaters. It's for the heating. 

 

One would expect that it would be up to the consumer to worry about what they use it for rather than the supplier. 

 

I know that rdco regs do get onto quantities of fuel purchased but for regular small loads rather than actual bunkering it seems like red will remain available. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ace of Spades said:

I’ve not got access to The Times article, but reading elsewhere, this seems to be basically what was in the Red Diesel Consultation that started in 2018, so I read it as, as we suspected the current system of using Red but self declaring will end, but it does state that “Red Diesel used for domestic purposes in a static situation will be unaffected”. The concern here is the “in static situations” part but again the consultation document make much more reference to business and industry. I suspect therefore as I’ve said, that the static bit aside, this is probably nothing more than we already knew.

 

I take that to mean that they are not going to put full road duty on heating oil, used by both domestic and business customers (and some boaters). But they are perhaps going to put the duty on all vehicles, other than agricultural. But it is less clear how other plant will be treated - generators, pumps etc. These are generally  used "in a static situation", even if they are mounted on vehicles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said:

We are out, Brexit exists, it's done and dusted one way or another, so pretty please can we all stop the infighting and bickering and not mention Brexit again ?

Phil

Particularly when it’s in a thread outside of the Politics section. 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I take that to mean that they are not going to put full road duty on heating oil, used by both domestic and business customers (and some boaters). But they are perhaps going to put the duty on all vehicles, other than agricultural. But it is less clear how other plant will be treated - generators, pumps etc. These are generally  used "in a static situation", even if they are mounted on vehicles.

From the article:

 

"The chancellor is expected to argue that making industries such as haulage and construction pay full duties on fuel for cranes, generators and other diesel-powered equipment will act as an incentive to find new, cleaner alternatives"

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I take that to mean that they are not going to put full road duty on heating oil, used by both domestic and business customers (and some boaters). But they are perhaps going to put the duty on all vehicles, other than agricultural. But it is less clear how other plant will be treated - generators, pumps etc. These are generally  used "in a static situation", even if they are mounted on vehicles.

I suppose at the end of the day until the budget is announced it is all speculation anyway, but if the legislation is worded the same as the consultation then there is a disconnect between the terms from a view of our usage, I.e. domestic and static, as our usage is domestic not industrial, but clearly is not static. I supposed there is a degree of interpretation there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironic really that implementing full road diesel duty on leisure boating means we will comply with the recent European Court judgement that the current split duty arrangement does not comply with European law, just as we embark on the process of abandoning the EU rules...

Edited by David Mack
  • Greenie 2
  • Love 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

We are out, Brexit exists, it's done and dusted one way or another, so pretty please can we all stop the infighting and bickering and not mention Brexit again ?

Phil

Not really for you to tell me, or furness, or anyone else, what to discuss or what not to discuss, is it!! Having said that, I notice you were happy to join in with a greenie so, perhaps, people in glass houses and all that eh?

 

We are actually talking about the consequences of Brexit, one of which seems to be that one of the few complaints that people here had, regarding the EU, (for the sake of good order - that is the subject of the OP), is not going to be changed.... I merely pointed out a couple of others, and furness brought up unnecessary EU regulations.

 

Unfortunately I think we are going to be talking about Brexit for a long time Phil. We are merely in a transition period, (had you not noticed :) ), and the initial outcome wont actually be put into place until the start of next year. Even after that, I dont see why we shouldnt talk about the consequences, good or bad... hopefully good :) 

Edited by Richard10002
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Particularly when it’s in a thread outside of the Politics section. 

Are you suggesting that the OP shouldn't have posted in this section......... he mentioned the budget which is one of the most political things that happens each year.

 

If you are not suggesting that, then where should the line be drawn? Surely if a door is opened, some will walk through it :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.