Spare Fuel...

[LadyG]

17 minutes ago, dmr said:

I had a very very quick look, it looked like lots of other additive sites, did I miss something? should I look again?

 

...................Dave

You missed the photo of the narrowboat perhaps, somewhat overshadowed by American Rail engines, but they do have one additive for the Webasto, so I'll get that, it's not a bug killer, it's for cleaning and lubricating, there is one for diesel pumps and injectors too, and for static storage tanks, presumably used in commerce, but most are available in smaller dosing bottles.

I put my Halfords snake oil in the fuel tank today, unfortunately I've had it so long the label has fallen off, and it may even be time expired, but let's face it, in extremis a diesel engine will just keep going, without complaint, it's my Webasto that sounds like a WW2 air raid siren.

 

 @Up-Side-Down recommends the Hydra Diesel Power Blast Injector Cleaner Fuel Additive , yes just one impressive name among many.........

Edited November 28, 2020 by LadyG

[dmr]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

You missed the photo of the narrowboat perhaps, somewhat overshadowed by American Rail engines, but they do have one additive for the Webasto, so I'll get that, it's not a bug killer, it's for cleaning and lubricating, there is one for diesel pumps and injectors too, and for static storage tanks, presumably used in commerce, but most are available in smaller dosing bottles.

I put my Halfords snake oil in the fuel tank today, unfortunately I've had it so long the label has fallen off, and it may even be time expired, but let's face it, in extremis a diesel engine will just keep going, without complaint, it's my Webasto that sounds like a WW2 air raid siren.

Well, as I said, companies that have a whole range of additives for every market are either VERY clever chemists, or marketing men. Unless you convince me otherwise I go for the marketing men.   Have a look at the Stanadyne website, at least they indicate how they formulate their additive mix for slightly different purposes.

I would go for Marine16 complete, Marine16 are only re packagers of a big company additives but they do admit to that, and are not too heavy on the silly marketing.

 

From what I have read a few additives can even be counter productive so choose with care.

 

I don't think a cetane raiser will help the Webasto because cetane quantifies the fuels ability to compression ignite.

 

...............Dave

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Well, as I said, companies that have a whole range of additives for every market are either VERY clever chemists, or marketing men. Unless you convince me otherwise I go for the marketing men.   Have a look at the Stanadyne website, at least they indicate how they formulate their additive mix for slightly different purposes.

I would go for Marine16 complete, Marine16 are only re packagers of a big company additives but they do admit to that, and are not too heavy on the silly marketing.

 

From what I have read a few additives can even be counter productive so choose with care.

 

I don't think a cetane raiser will help the Webasto because cetane quantifies the fuels ability to compression ignite.

 

...............Dave

I use Marine16 to keep the diesel in best condition, but I really want to clean out the injectors and pumps, as the engine was not used a lot for quite a few years, I disposed of about 30 l of filthy muck from the bottom of the tank last year, that would have been out of maybe sixty litres in the tank, but filters were replaced, and engine runs nicely.

I am not interested in using the cetane booster until I've cleaned the engine injectors and pumps including the Webasto, the engine draws from same tank, but I intend to take advice from the company before I buy anything.

Edited November 28, 2020 by LadyG

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I use Marine16 to keep the diesel in best condition, but I really want to clean out the injectors and pumps, as the engine was not used a lot for quite a few years, I disposed of about 30 l of filthy muck from the bottom of the tank last year, that would have been out of maybe sixty litres in the tank, but filters were replaced, and engine runs nicely.

You could try Marine16 cleaner. I think this is the same as the regular stuff but with more detergent. So why not use this all the time? who knows? there must be a reason but nobody is willing to say.

The filters should catch the rubbish so the injection pump is likely ok, but a strip down is the only way to find out. An injector cleaner wont fix sediment or cure some of the really bad contaminates (that go right through the filter and deposit in the pump) but will remove some bad stuff. If you really think you have dirty injectors then getting them out and tested/properly cleaned might be the only way to go. Its worth taking injectors out every year or two. A really good engine thrash will fix a lot of dirty engine problems (a boaters tune up)

 

................Dave

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, dmr said:

You could try Marine16 cleaner. I think this is the same as the regular stuff but with more detergent. So why not use this all the time? who knows? there must be a reason but nobody is willing to say.

The filters should catch the rubbish so the injection pump is likely ok, but a strip down is the only way to find out. An injector cleaner wont fix sediment or cure some of the really bad contaminates (that go right through the filter and deposit in the pump) but will remove some bad stuff. If you really think you have dirty injectors then getting them out and tested/properly cleaned might be the only way to go. Its worth taking injectors out every year or two. A really good engine thrash will fix a lot of dirty engine problems (a boaters tune up)

 

................Dave

Yes, the point is that I am not near any facilities, and I don't think I need send the injectors away, I don't think they need servicing., even if I could, I may be on the Trent in a week or so, and want to make sure everything is in good order, it's not a good idea to start a full service a few days before that, once on the wider canals in a safe environment I open up the throttle for a good blast, and it's sometime necessary when arriving at a tidal lock, but best leave the engineering side of things to a specialist imho.

The main thing is to get the Webasto cleaner in to the system  it will also clean the injectors I think, that is why I am going to speak to the Technical people .

Edited November 28, 2020 by LadyG

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

You need a jiggle syphon rather than a spout for transferring from a can. Very easy to use and hard to spill more than a few drops.

 

 

Really? I've got one of those too but don't rate them. I'd rather just use a big funnel. I've got a couple that are 15" diameter and that's much easier than those jiggle syphons, but I guess it's whatever you're happy using.

[bizzard]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

You missed the photo of the narrowboat perhaps, somewhat overshadowed by American Rail engines, but they do have one additive for the Webasto, so I'll get that, it's not a bug killer, it's for cleaning and lubricating, there is one for diesel pumps and injectors too, and for static storage tanks, presumably used in commerce, but most are available in smaller dosing bottles.

I put my Halfords snake oil in the fuel tank today, unfortunately I've had it so long the label has fallen off, and it may even be time expired, but let's face it, in extremis a diesel engine will just keep going, without complaint, it's my Webasto that sounds like a WW2 air raid siren.

 

 @Up-Side-Down recommends the Hydra Diesel Power Blast Injector Cleaner Fuel Additive , yes just one impressive name among many.........

The one for cleaning injectors and pumps works, but I don't put it into the tanks but remove the filter unit from the engine, pour out half the diesel and top it up with the cleaner. so about a 50/50 mix, bung it back on and start up and run the engine at about 1200 rpm for 15 mins.  I have cured sooted up dribbling injector nozzles like this which were causing missfires and smoke. On older diesel vehicles too to pass MOT emissions test.  REDEX and others make it.

Edited November 29, 2020 by bizzard

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, bizzard said:

The one for cleaning injectors and pumps works, but I don't put it into the tanks but remove the filter unit from the engine, pour out half the diesel and top it up with the cleaner. so about a 50/50 mix, bung it back on and start up and run the engine at about 1200 rpm for 15 mins.  I have cured sooted up dribbling injector nozzles like this which were causing missfires and smoke. On older diesel vehicles too to pass MOT emissions test.  REDEX and others make it.

But that would only clean the injectors, and it's the Webasto I want to clean first and foremost, plus I am not going to start opening the fuel lines this week, I have no reason to think the injectors are in need of special treatment, but I'll keep some back for when I change the fuel filter, in about fifty hours, initially I'm going to use the additives as recommended by the manufacture., just pour in the tank and run the engine in gear plus the Webasto, then after maybe ten hours top up with fresh diesel, so initially the cleaner is nearer 'treatment' dilution, then later at 'maintenance'. No doubt the usual suspects will disagree, as they always do, but they are on 'ignore' anyway and their opinion is not worth argument.

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, LadyG said:

The Hydra site discusses increasing the Cetane percentage, I translate this as getting more power and therefore efficiency from any diesel engine, I can't see it being anything other than a good thing.

 

 

Unlike octane rating for petrol that allows you to advance the ignition without detonation (pinking) the cetane rating for diesel oil is  related to the fuels readiness to ignite. The higher the cetane rating the more readily it will ignite. This should only make minimal difference to power (if any) because we are only talking microseconds of difference in the engine but what it will do is make the  diesel knock less noticeable and thus make the engine quieter, especially at idle and when cold, and seem smoother.

 

I have not read the Hydra site but if its written in a way that makes you think cetane is related to power I would be rather suspicious of all they say.

 

Anyway, back to diesel knock. When injection starts it takes a few microseconds for the droplets of  fuel to warm up enough to ignite. This is known as the delay period and the delay period the more unburned fuel droplets enter the cylinder/combustion chamber. Now, as soon as the fuel start to ignite the temperature rises substantially so the whole lot of fuel droplets ignite creating a pressure pulse. This is what you hear as diesel knock. So the quicker the droplets ignite the less unburned fuel droplets will be in the cylinder at the time of ignition so the smaller the pressure pulse and the less the knock you hear. The cetane rating tells us how readily the fuel ignites, that is all. Further to this claims the cetane rating is relevant to things like Eberbastos is in my view just bullshine. They ignite their fuel over seconds not small parts of seconds.

 

 

 

[Athy]

On 23/02/2020 at 18:56, Ex Brummie said:

 

A garden cane can be kept in the bilge to give you an accurate depth check.

That's what we do, in fact ours is a multi-purpose tool: clean end for the water dank, dirty end for the fuel tank.

   Are any narrowboats fitted with fuel gauges? I don't think I've ever seen one.

[Bee]

My experience of Ebers and similar devices is that the fuel is rarely the problem. Many cold winters in a mobile library with the stupid things burning (or not) fresh road diesel leads me to believe that they simply need taking out, given a good kicking, decarbonising and various new bits of electric circuitry every winter. The council I worked for ended up specifying two of the things in new vehicles. One nearly always failed every winter.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Unlike octane rating for petrol that allows you to advance the ignition without detonation (pinking) the cetane rating for diesel oil is  related to the fuels readiness to ignite. The higher the cetane rating the more readily it will ignite. This should only make minimal difference to power (if any) because we are only talking microseconds of difference in the engine but what it will do is make the  diesel knock less noticeable and thus make the engine quieter, especially at idle and when cold, and seem smoother.

 

I have not read the Hydra site but if its written in a way that makes you think cetane is related to power I would be rather suspicious of all they say.

 

Anyway, back to diesel knock. When injection starts it takes a few microseconds for the droplets of  fuel to warm up enough to ignite. This is known as the delay period and the delay period the more unburned fuel droplets enter the cylinder/combustion chamber. Now, as soon as the fuel start to ignite the temperature rises substantially so the whole lot of fuel droplets ignite creating a pressure pulse. This is what you hear as diesel knock. So the quicker the droplets ignite the less unburned fuel droplets will be in the cylinder at the time of ignition so the smaller the pressure pulse and the less the knock you hear. The cetane rating tells us how readily the fuel ignites, that is all. Further to this claims the cetane rating is relevant to things like Eberbastos is in my view just bullshine. They ignite their fuel over seconds not small parts of seconds.

 

 

 

The cleaner for the Webasto is a different product to the 'cetane boost product', and there is also another product to clean the engine injectors and pumps.

I may have been casual about my usage of power, I just kinda thought that with a cleaner engine plus a greater economy of fuel (claimed), one is getting more miles per gallon, , therefore on a day to day basis, the engine is providing more power than Red Diesel without the Cetane Additive. Even without the Cetane Additive, having a cleaner engine  (fuel pump and injectors), I assumed the engine would be more efficient, though now I am not even sure how I would define 'efficiency'

 

Because my Webasto draws from the same tank as the engine, I anticipate that one product "Hydra Marine Power Blast" £14.99 will also clean fuel injectors and the pump, the one for engines alone "Hydra Diesel Power Blast is £9.75 , so the chances are that it's not just the same product with a better name.

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by LadyG

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

My experience of Ebers and similar devices is that the fuel is rarely the problem. Many cold winters in a mobile library with the stupid things burning (or not) fresh road diesel leads me to believe that they simply need taking out, given a good kicking, decarbonising and various new bits of electric circuitry every winter. The council I worked for ended up specifying two of the things in new vehicles. One nearly always failed every winter.

 

Yes I wasn't going to say anything as I didn't want to include myself in "the usual suspects who disagree" but that's what I was thinking too. A poorly performing Webasto is unlikely just to need a bit of fuel additive put though it. Generally they need servicing when they start to play up - or ideally before. 

[LadyG]

11 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Really? I've got one of those too but don't rate them. I'd rather just use a big funnel. I've got a couple that are 15" diameter and that's much easier than those jiggle syphons, but I guess it's whatever you're happy using.

I think they are great, but you need to jiggle furiously to get them to work I got all but a litre out of my big container, I struggle with the big containers, splash almost inevitable if messing about with funnels. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by LadyG

[blackrose]

Depends how big your funnel is. I don't get any splashes. Certainly less messy than those jiggle syphons dripping everywhere even you take them out.

[Mad Harold]

23 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Depends how big your funnel is. I don't get any splashes. Certainly less messy than those jiggle syphons dripping everywhere even you take them out.

I use a squeeze bulb pump to transfer fuel from a jerrycan to the tank. (I assume that is what is called a jiggle pump) Even with a large funnel,I manage to get fuel splashes.

You must have a steadier hand than me.

As for the pump and pipes dripping,I put them in the outboard well to dry out.It's petrol,so soon evaporates.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Mad Harold

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

The cleaner for the Webasto is a different product to the 'cetane boost product', and there is also another product to clean the engine injectors and pumps.

I may have been casual about my usage of power, I just kinda thought that with a cleaner engine plus a greater economy of fuel (claimed), one is getting more miles per gallon, , therefore on a day to day basis, the engine is providing more power than Red Diesel without the Cetane Additive. Even without the Cetane Additive, having a cleaner engine  (fuel pump and injectors), I assumed the engine would be more efficient, though now I am not even sure how I would define 'efficiency'

 

Because my Webasto draws from the same tank as the engine, I anticipate that one product "Hydra Marine Power Blast" £14.99 will also clean fuel injectors and the pump, the one for engines alone "Hydra Diesel Power Blast is £9.75 , so the chances are that it's not just the same product with a better name.

 

I only mentioned Eberbastos to illustrate how some people latch onto technical terms and the use them to explain things to which they have little relevance.

 

The cetane rating is not only obtained by additives, the refinery procedures also play a part. This is why the old red often had a lower cetane rating as it was taken from a different point in the fractionating tower as was this cheaper to produce. That fraction was probably more prone to incomplete combustion so may well produce more carbon (I have no proof of this) but as diesel ships burn fuel from far further down the fractionating tower that is more like tar I doubt the caboning effect between fuels refined to higher or lower cetane would likely be only marginal. If a refinery is adding a cetane improver it will be as a way of making cheaper lower cetane fuel acceptable to the market.

 

If your injector nozzles are gummed up so badly the needles stick you would soon know by the amount of exhaust smoke and a misfire. However if the tip of the needle or the nozzle is carboned up enough to prevent the proper atomisation of the fuel then getting rid of the carbon and gum will improve the power and reduce emissions but this has nothing to do with cetane. If the solvents and detergents reduce such deposits then I agree such additives will be likely to improve emission, economy and power.

 

I think claiming that "cleaning" the injector pump will do much to improve an engines performance is questionable, probably extrapolating from the advantages of clean, gum free injectors to improve marketing.

 

No harm in using them in our type of diesels but I would be carefull in modern high pressure common rail and other systems. VW warns against it in their unit injector diesels.

 

 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

I use a squeeze bulb pump to transfer fuel from a jerrycan to the tank. (I assume that is what is called a jiggle pump) Even with a large funnel,I manage to get fuel splashes.

You must have a steadier hand than me.

As for the pump and pipes dripping,I put them in the outboard well to dry out.It's petrol,so soon evaporates.

 

No a jiggle syphon isn't really a pump, it's just a tube with a moving part in one end which you shake to start the syphon action, instead of sucking and getting a mouthful of fuel.

https://www.toolstation.com/laser-jiggle-siphon/p46767

 

I don't have a particularly steady hand, just a 15" dia funnel.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by blackrose

[George and Dragon]

On 28/11/2020 at 14:47, robtheplod said:

Just revisiting this. I had a 10 litre plastic can but the spout was awful and it was difficult to pour from. Thinking about 20litre Jerry cans but just wanted to check can you get good/bad cans? Some mention having a liner to stop rust so thinking different quality ones about?  We have an Army Surplus nearby so maybe this would be better although much more expensive??

 

thanks!!

When I worked at a hospital we used diesel to prevent tools going rusty. I don't think a jerry can full of diesel will rust from the inside.

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes I wasn't going to say anything as I didn't want to include myself in "the usual suspects who disagree" but that's what I was thinking too. A poorly performing Webasto is unlikely just to need a bit of fuel additive put though it. Generally they need servicing when they start to play up - or ideally before. 

It's working, it just makes a helluva racquet. 

[Murflynn]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

No a jiggle syphon isn't really a pump, it's just a tube with a moving part in one end which you shake to start the syphon action, instead of sucking and getting a mouthful of fuel.

https://www.toolstation.com/laser-jiggle-siphon/p46767

 

I don't have a particularly steady hand, just a 15" dia funnel.

 

 

I use this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portable-Siphon-Pump-Oil-Extractor-Petrol-Diesel-Fuel-Liquid-Air-Car-Inflator/193668449019?hash=item2d178a02fb:g:9YIAAOSwU2FfFK3K

 

a couple of spring clips holds it in place in a convenient location close to the receiving tank.